Mr. Goguen.
Evidence of meeting #5 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-10.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #5 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-10.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:25 a.m.
Conservative
Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
To Mr. Head, we've talked about overcrowding, and I've heard you use the term “double-bunking”. Can I get some clarity on that? I trust it's not two inmates in one bed.
10:25 a.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
No, sir, there's a different term for that.
This is two inmates in a cell that's equipped with two beds.
10:25 a.m.
Conservative
Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
All right, thank you for that clarity.
Professor Oscapella, as a little bit of your background, I understand you're the founding member of the Canadian Foundation for Drug Policy.
10:25 a.m.
Part-time Professor, Department of Criminology, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes.
10:25 a.m.
Conservative
Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
How many years have you been working at that, sir?
10:25 a.m.
Part-time Professor, Department of Criminology, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
We founded it in 1993.
10:25 a.m.
Conservative
Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
In 1993. So the 20th anniversary is two years away.
10:25 a.m.
Part-time Professor, Department of Criminology, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes, it's coming shortly.
10:25 a.m.
Conservative
Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
As I understand it, the primary goal is to work towards legalization of drugs.
10:25 a.m.
Part-time Professor, Department of Criminology, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No. Its primary goal is to examine Canadian drug laws and policies to see where they're deficient, and if they're deficient to recommend alternatives.
First of all, legalization is a very dangerous term to use, because it means many different things to many people. To some people, legalization means the total absence of control, which is in effect what we have now with the criminal law in many ways.
There are many alternatives to the current criminal justice system. You can have a medicalized system, a regulatory system, a health-based system. The objective of the organization is not to promote legalization. It's to promote effective and humane drug policies. That's quite clearly stated in the objectives of our organization.
10:25 a.m.
Conservative
Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
But am I to understand you're working towards the decriminalization of possession of marijuana as one of your objectives?
10:25 a.m.
Part-time Professor, Department of Criminology, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I personally believe there is no value in maintaining the application of the criminal law to the simple possession, production, or distribution of cannabis and that it could be very effectively regulated based on the alcohol model, only without advertising and without excessive commercialization, on a health-based approach. Now, whatever you want to call it—you can call it legalization—it's a more effective means of regulating and controlling cannabis than the current system. Those are my personal views.
10:25 a.m.
Conservative
Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
That's something your foundation has been working towards for the last 18 years?
10:25 a.m.
Part-time Professor, Department of Criminology, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No. Our foundation has been a public education vehicle. That's most of what we do. Occasionally I appear before parliamentary committees, but essentially our work is.... If you go to our website you'll see we report on this bill, for example. It's listed there, and the backgrounder documents are there for all to see.
We believe that public education is essential to developing better drug policies.
10:25 a.m.
Conservative
Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
In your statement you recognize that the drug trade was a major source of moneys for organized crime, I take it?
10:25 a.m.
Part-time Professor, Department of Criminology, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
The RCMP for many years in many of its reports has been saying that the principal source of income for most criminal groups in Canada is the drug trade. What they don't say—what they omit to say—is the very obvious: the reason the drug trade is so lucrative is because of drug prohibition, meaning the application of the criminal law to drugs creates a fantastically lucrative black market.
That is why the drug trade in Canada, if you believe the RCMP, is the principal source of financing for criminal organizations. It's also one of the principal sources of funding for terrorist and insurgent groups around the world.
10:25 a.m.
Conservative
Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
But you don't dispute that it's a major source of revenue for organized crime, despite the reason it's there?
10:25 a.m.
Part-time Professor, Department of Criminology, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No. I'm telling you what the RCMP is telling me. I'm not in a position to go ahead and investigate the revenues of organized crime myself, obviously. I'm relying on reports of the RCMP over probably a period of decades now where they have made such statements.
The U.S. Presidential Commission on Organized Crime that was set up under President Reagan also concluded that the major source of income for criminal organizations in the United States was the illegal drug trade. Again, the important point to realize is that it's only a major source of income because of prohibition. In other words, our drug laws actually create the problem.
10:25 a.m.
Conservative
Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
So the solution would be to legalize the drug trade and completely wipe out organized crime's financing?
10:25 a.m.
Part-time Professor, Department of Criminology, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No, you're not going to wipe out organized crime's finances. Look at Colombia. In Colombia there are two main vehicles for the left-wing guerrillas and the right-wing paramilitaries to get income. One is the drug trade or taxing the drug trade and the other is kidnappings. Kidnapping is much more labour-intensive and much more difficult to do than the drug trade.
It will not end the power of organized crime. We will still have organized crime in this country. But we are giving organized crime fantastic resources through this black market that we've created through drug prohibition. It's very simple economics.
That's why a kilo of heroin costs about $900—these are UN figures from the 1990s—to produce in Pakistan, but by the time it is cut and sold at retail in the United States it's worth almost $300,000. That is purely the product of prohibition.
10:30 a.m.
NDP
Charmaine Borg NDP Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
Thank you.
My questions are for Ms. Latimer.
With regard to the questions asked last week, the minister basically denied that a prisoner getting three two-year sentences was capable of straightening out. I would like to hear your comments on that.
I would also like to know, with regard to a former criminal getting out of prison who would like to lead a lawful life but cannot get a pardon due to changes made to the act, what kinds of obstacles this would mean for him.
10:30 a.m.
Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada
I'm glad you raised that question. Some of my colleagues who are here will be addressing this more specifically later, but it is our view that to preclude a person who has paid their debt to society—they've completed their sentence, they've participated in a crime-free period—to deny them relief from discrimination because they have a criminal record, deny them the opportunity to get employment, to travel, and to do a variety of other things, really does hinder their possibility of continuing to lead crime-free lives.
You need to restore people who have done their time back into the community. You can't be continually punishing someone for something they have done for which they have already paid their debt to society. We think it's a very damaging policy.