Evidence of meeting #51 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was trans.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sara Davis Buechner  Professor of Music, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Hershel Russell  Psychotherapist, Trans Activist and Educator, As an Individual
D. Ryan Dyck  Director, Policy and Public Education, Egale Canada
Erin Apsit  Member, Egale Canada Trans Committee, Egale Canada

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Yes, I believe so. I think writing down clarifies, and also entrenches in the law. It wouldn't be subject to future judicial decisions that might narrow the grounds somehow. I'm not saying that would happen, but it does entrench those rights. It does provide that sense of inclusion and encourages people to use the law to protect the same rights that others have.

On the question of redundancy, without being flippant, I think it is true that if we went to the Criminal Code, we could shorten it a lot. There's already a lot of redundancy in the Criminal Code. So I don't think that.... If that argument is true, and I don't believe it is true, I don't think that's something that should bar us from including this, at any rate.

I guess a third thing I would say is that when I brought this bill forward, I did it in the spirit that—you mentioned it—I believe there are Canadian values of inclusion that are very, very important to all of us in Parliament. I don't believe they are exclusive to one side or the other. That is why I have spent a lot of my time on this bill, talking to people in other parties and trying to understand where the common ground is.

Regarding the amendments, in my best world, I wouldn't be amending the bill, because I have confidence in the way it was written. But what I have tried to do is find the common ground we have in Parliament, as Canadians, to move forward on this question. That is why I am bringing the amendments forward, hoping—

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

With the amendments, though, are you satisfied that it does reach the protection you are seeking?

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

I believe it does, and I've talked to some legal specialists who believe it does.

As I said earlier, the main place that I do find some concern is in the transgendered community, where people who don't fit either box, as intersexed, or people who do not want to fit any box of gender, worry that leaving out gender expression gives scope for their rights not to be included.

Now, I believe that legally we'll be on strong ground there, but we will be missing the educative purpose of gender expression. On the side of that are the fears and misunderstanding created around that.

So in trying to find that common ground, I am prepared—I'll be substituting at committee—to bring forward those amendments.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

Mr. Jean.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming before us today.

I admire your courage. I would suggest it's very commendable. It's no easy thing to come to a place like this and testify. I speak to you in particular.

I'm asking you to convince me, first of all, that your rights are not protected. I was one of those who also voted against it. I was a criminal lawyer for many years, and I have to tell you that I have seen a lot of violence against a lot of groups of individuals. I grew up in northern Alberta, and there was actually violence against redheads there.

4:25 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

It may seem funny at this stage, but when I was a young boy it did not seem funny, running from high school every day.

I do understand that yours is a bit more severe, but I can't change the colour of my hair very easily either.

I am interested in a couple of things. The first is your position relating to not being protected. Reading, for instance, section 15 of the Constitution, it states particular things that are protected. As Mr. Rathgeber says, and I want to reiterate, the case law, especially regarding Ontario and B.C. and the human rights commissions there, identified that in terms of gender identity, transgenderists, intersexed, and cross-dressers all deserve that protection and do receive that protection.

First, how do you convince me that it's not already covered? Because I don't, quite frankly, buy your argument now. I think Mr. Rathgeber is right, that it seems to be more of a situation where it's identifying yourself as a group apart from other groups, even though, to my mind, you're already protected.

Like you, Mr. Garrison, I believe the Criminal Code is too long. Many of our acts, including the Income Tax Act, are the same way.

So that's the first question. The second question is the issue of disability. I myself am not transgendered, or of that community, but I don't look at this as a disability issue. I think it's a choice, from my reading and what I've seen. Most people make the choice based upon what they believe their personal position is, and I understand that.

So that would be the second thing. It appears to me that some people want to have it identified as a disability so that they can receive, to my understanding, medical care under certain conditions.

I would like you to address both of those issues, if you could, and why you didn't bring forward a bill to identify it not as a disability, in particular.

4:30 p.m.

Professor of Music, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Dr. Sara Davis Buechner

I want to answer your questions with a question: why did you choose to have red hair?

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

I didn't. And I agree with you; I agree with your position on that.

4:30 p.m.

Professor of Music, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Dr. Sara Davis Buechner

However, I would say to you that I'm surprised your parents didn't just dye your hair black when you were a child so that you wouldn't get beaten up when you went to school.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

I was the youngest of eleven, so that probably answers that question. Most of it came from home.

4:30 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

4:30 p.m.

Professor of Music, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Dr. Sara Davis Buechner

I'm just trying to—

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

I only have five minutes, and I would really like my questions answered. I don't disagree with your position in relation to your point on that.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

I think we've gone through the already-covered ground several times. I guess I would say that in some respects the proof is in the pudding. The lived experience of transgender people is that they find that when they go to do certain things in their daily lives, things that others do, they have trouble doing them. One of those things is identity documents.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

But they are protected. In my mind, they are protected, and in fact the laws protect them. It might be a matter of enforcement, or people's understanding of it, but it's not a matter of them not being protected.

My first point is that you haven't convinced me that it needs protection, that it isn't already there, but my second point—which I would like you to deal with, because I think I have only a minute left—is the issue of disability. I didn't realize there was a difference of opinion in the community itself, so I would like you to deal with that.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Well, why I didn't bring forward a bill that...I guess I won't deal with.

The question of listing things as a disorder, and then providing health services on the basis of that disorder definition, is what's controversial in the transgendered community. What is not controversial is that transgender people feel they have the right to medical care.

If your arm is broken, you have the right to go and have it fixed. If you're in the wrong body and you need to have things adjusted for your mental health and your physical health, then that same right should exist—not on the basis of a disability but on the basis of the same rights that other Canadians have.

4:30 p.m.

Professor of Music, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Dr. Sara Davis Buechner

I guess I would also add that the DSM, which is the medical journal that lists gender dysphoria as a disability, for most of the 20th century listed homosexuality as a curable disorder. They finally changed that.

There's the same kind of controversy going on about that, not only by politicians, but certainly by medical professionals. The people who I saw, who dealt with me on the basis of my being—quote, unquote—disordered, certainly did not think that I had a disorder.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

And I would suggest that would be the best thing to change for your community, is whether or not it's a disability—which I don't believe it should be listed as.

4:30 p.m.

Professor of Music, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Dr. Sara Davis Buechner

Yes. It's beyond my hands. I'll stick to Mozart, myself. That's a big, big job, which is outside the realm of.... I think it's a different issue that we're discussing here.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

Thank you.

We've come to the end of the first session.

I want to thank both witnesses for your testimony today. It's been very enlightening and beneficial to the committee.

We'll just take a minute and switch panels.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

I'll call the meeting back to order.

As I know the clerk has indicated, if you have an opening address, please make it now. I would ask you to keep it to about the seven-minute length or less. We are going to run out of time here, I'm sure.

So amongst yourselves, decide who will go first. That's fine with us.

Go ahead, Mr. Russell.

November 20th, 2012 / 4:40 p.m.

Hershel Russell Psychotherapist, Trans Activist and Educator, As an Individual

Bonjour. I'm very honoured to be here today. It has so much meaning to be here on the Trans Day of Remembrance, which is a worldwide occasion, as you know.

My name is Hershel Russell. I'm a psychotherapist in private practice in Toronto. I also do specializing in work with transgender people and their families. I also do a lot of education work around trans issues across the province and in other parts of Canada. I'm a clinical member of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health, and I'm the co-chair of the education committee for the Canadian branch of that organization.

One of the things I wanted to mention is that we have had two really excellent pieces of research recently, one from the United States, a very large piece of research, the National Transgender Discrimination Survey, and another from Ontario, the Trans PULSE Survey, which has given us a tremendous amount of information about trans lives.

Some of the information I would really like you to grasp in terms of this bill is that both studies show very clearly that we are an exceptionally highly educated community. We have more education than almost any other community, and we are a community that suffers from extraordinary poverty. I would like to argue that this combination of things can only be explained by discrimination. There really isn't another way to explain it. Both of these documents also really show the terrifying, heartbreaking levels of suicidality in our community, and certainly, as a mental health professional, I have to work with these painful, painful issues over and over and over.

Speaking a little about myself, because I know that personal stories are important, I look fairly convincingly like a man these days, especially when I don't speak. Once upon a time, I looked pretty convincingly like a woman. However, there was a period in between—of about three years—when I looked very gender ambiguous and, on a daily basis, we punish people who look gender ambiguous in this current society.

I remember walking down the street and people gazing like this...quite frequently. I remember walking down the street in Toronto in the late 1990s, and as I walked by, people were spitting on the sidewalk in front of me. I remember going to the drugstore to buy a tube of toothpaste. I'm getting my change, and the clerk says: “Thank you, sir. Oh—madam. Oh—sir. Oh—madam”. Suddenly I'm this spectacle and everyone is looking at me.

This kind of gaze also, as my colleague Sara was saying, really impacts on our experiences of public bathrooms. In that ambiguous period, I remember situations where in the first year I at first would go to the women's bathroom. Towards the end of that year, sometimes I would have a woman open the door, go “oh!”, and leave. A little further on I had a woman point at me and say: “You get out of here. You don't belong.” Then I began to go to the men's washroom, at least some of the time, where I faced a small but very real threat of physical and/or sexual assault.

I wonder if you would be willing to imagine the impact on anxiety and the impact on self-esteem for someone who, every time they need to use a bathroom in a public space, has to choose between the high likelihood of harassment and the low but real likelihood of sexual assault. You can understand that kind of level of stress, perhaps.

I was very fortunate and I feel enormously blessed to have not been physically assaulted, but I will never forget the time when I was coming home after a concert. I was standing on the corner of Queen and University opposite the concert hall in downtown Toronto. Not very far in front of me, a white van pulled up, and the door opened. Inside the van were half a dozen young men. They shouted, “You epithet, epithet, get in here.” I was terrified that they would seize me, because they were very close, and also terrified that, because I looked very gender ambiguous, the people standing around me would make no attempt to protect me. Thank goodness the light changed. But I still, many years later, when I walk past that corner, feel my heartbeat speed up.

Much more recently, I was struggling with issues around identity documents. I'm very glad the issue is being raised. I have a medical condition that means it would be quite dangerous for me to undergo transgender-related surgeries. So far I have succeeded in holding off from having them anyway, but because I have not had any of those surgeries, I am not permitted to change my passport.

Looking like this, I walk through the security system at an airport with a passport that says I am female. For this reason, there are a number of countries I simply don't go to because I'm afraid to.

Recently, however, I went down to a very important conference in Atlanta, in the United States, put on by WPATH, the World Professional Association for Transgender Health. I came home a little early because I had work the next day. I was in the airport in the afternoon, when it was slow. There were not many people around, and the security guards were perhaps a little bored.

As I handed over my passport, I saw a nudge. A security officer came up to me. He was large and he was red in the face—and he was red in the neck—and he said to me, “Go into the scanner”. Of course, trans people are particularly anxious about the scanner, because it creates an outline of the genitals. I was a little shaken, but I came out of the scanner and I waited. He said, “Into the scanner again”. And then a third time he made me go into the scanner. By this time, I could hear titters.

He then looked me in the eye and said, “I have to examine you manually, because there seems to be something—here”: he put his hand on my chest and squeezed, looking me in the eye. You can perhaps imagine my humiliation and my anger.

I am still a little disappointed in myself that I didn't make a complaint. I was alone in the airport, I was afraid, I was humiliated. It was Atlanta, and as a Canadian I have some assumptions about what goes on in Atlanta, Georgia.

So one of the things I really do want to urge in terms of next steps is that it becomes possible—as several countries have now made it possible—for it to be much easier to change our identity documents, all of them.

How am I doing on time?

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

You're pretty close to the edge.

4:45 p.m.

Psychotherapist, Trans Activist and Educator, As an Individual

Hershel Russell

I'm close to the edge? Okay. I'll just say one more little piece, then.

I hope you ask me questions about health issues, because I'm very up to date on the disputes around the DSM, around the upcoming ICD, the international compendium of diseases, and on those discussions at both a medical level and within the trans community.

So I welcome those questions, but I'm not much use around legal questions, I'm sorry.

Finally, one thing for marginalized groups is that when we are growing up, we don't have models for what it might be like to grow up to be a person like me. I had this very touching experience a couple of years ago, at a book launch. A very young person, maybe 16 or 17, came up to me very shyly—and brashly, the way teenagers do—and he looked vaguely familiar. He said to me, “I hope it's okay to say this, but we live in the same neighbourhood, and I saw you going through your changes. I'd see you in the grocery store, and I'd see you waiting for the streetcar, and I'd think, well, that's okay then; when I grow up, I can just be me.”

I can't speak to the legal importance, but I can speak to the symbolic importance of the Government of Canada saying that transgender people have human rights like everyone else. I can speak to the power that might have for a community that struggles with discrimination.

Thank you.