Justice Committee on March 25th, 2013

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for holding this over. I really appreciate that.

Minister Swan, we appreciate you being here and travelling a long way.

I just want to say very clearly that all members of this committee, and Parliament itself, realize the scourge that youth gangs are. This issue is not something that's partisan, as far as I can see. My remarks are going to sound somewhat partisan, and that's why I'm approaching them this way. Truthfully, I and some others were quite surprised that a single MP undertook something of this nature. Considering the seriousness of the situation, our belief was that a comprehensive approach to this would be more valuable.

I'm just going to ask you a quick question.

Are you familiar with the Vibrant Communities initiative? Calgary has one under way. They've come out of the United States. Hamilton has a poverty round table that is looking at the negative aspects of poverty. I was a school board trustee in Hamilton and I saw first-hand that our poorest areas were the ones in which the gangs were most successful. So there is that rounded approach.

If you'd like to respond, that would be great, but please raise this with the ministers when you're talking to them, because you were talking about 14 points initially, and perhaps this would be a helpful addition.

[Andrew Swan]

I know many communities have different approaches to try to deal with crime and justice issues. In Winnipeg, the civic government has set up a program called LiveSAFE, which I think would be very similar.

We know that Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, has pioneered in Canada what we think is the cutting-edge approach to dealing with violence. It's actually based on the Glasgow violence reduction initiative, which has won awards across the world for what it does. It really gets at assisting the police. In Winnipeg at three in the morning on a Saturday, the police are not just the police. They're also mental health workers. They're counsellors, and in many cases they're also providing first aid. The police are the thin edge of the wedge. In Prince Albert the police have really been incorporated into a broader community initiative to deal with violence reduction, but that project has also produced improvements in a number of different outcomes, for example, fewer referrals to child and family services, better school attendance, and fewer visits to health services.

I think there is an understanding that we have to do a better job of supporting our police, and we do that by getting all of the other people in our communities, who understand the needs, aligned with the police. The Prince Albert model is very exciting. A fellow named Dale McFee, who is the former police chief of Prince Albert, is the champion. The Saskatchewan government has been smart enough to grab him. He's now, I believe, the deputy minister to Minister Tell, who is the minister responsible for corrections in Saskatchewan. Chief McFee, or now DM McFee, is quite prepared to talk about the experience in Prince Albert, and it is something that I think all Canadians should be looking to.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Mr. VanMackelbergh, I think it's always great when we have an officer with us here who has front-line experience. The background you gave us in the beginning brought to mind a question. We know that jails and prisons are among the best recruiting areas for gangs, because they have them confined where they can't get away and they can learn about them and work on them over a period of time. I'm interested in your experience: when young people have come out of prison, what changes have you seen? Does it take them to that different level, as many people say? Perhaps, if there's time, the Boys and Girls Clubs folks may wish to respond.

Thank you.

[George VanMackelbergh]

There are probably, in all honesty, a couple of answers to that, sir.

What you see—at least it's what my experience has been—when you have young adult males coming out of...it's a gladiator school. It truly is. When they're committed to the lifestyle, do they come out bigger, stronger, and smarter? They certainly do.

It's interesting. One of the other members spoke earlier about restorative justice. You can also say, arguably, that the first-time offender, the young person on the bubble.... Sometimes it has the adverse effect of the hard-core criminal; they come out and want nothing to do with it.

Going into the prison as a young member, even though you have more status over other inmates who aren't part of the gang, you're still at the bottom of that pecking order. And we won't get into the things that occur there.

In fairness and honesty, those would be the two biggest experiences that come out of that. Quite frankly, I'd rather see gangs do their recruiting in a prison than on a school ground.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Would the Boys and Girls Clubs like to comment? I'll give you a minute to comment, if you'd like to.

[Dr. Rachel Gouin]

I don't have anything to add to that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, witnesses. These were excellent presentations. They gave us lots to think about in terms of amendments.

We are going to suspend for three or four minutes to switch the room around. Then we will go clause-by-clause on this particular item.

With that, I'll suspend for four minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. We're into the second half of our meeting. We're going to do the clause-by-clause on Bill C-394.

When we do clause-by-clause, if there's a question you'd like to ask our official, Mr. Taylor, about an addition or an amendment that's in front of us, that's when we'll do it. We'll do it as we go through clause-by-clause.

We have eight amendments that were previously submitted to us. I think we have a ninth amendment from the NDP. We have one that I'll have to rule out of order, so we'll end up with eight in total at this point.

Let's start with clause-by-clause consideration.

(Clause 1 agreed to)

(On clause 2)

It has an amendment. It's amendment G-1, which stands for government-1.

Mr. Goguen, do you wish to speak to it?

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Absolutely.

As you know, Bill C-394 proposes to amend the Criminal Code. It would create an indictable Criminal Code offence of recruiting somebody to join a criminal organization. The offence would be punishable by a five-year maximum of imprisonment. And where the person recruited is a minor, there would be a mandatory minimum penalty of imprisonment of six months.

The act of recruitment would have to be shown to be done for the purpose of enhancing the ability of the criminal organization to facilitate or commit indictable offences. The bill sends a clear message that this behaviour will not be tolerated and will help the government advance its effort to protect youth from the threats proposed by organized crime.

While the government supports the bill and the creation of a new indictable offence, it recognizes there is a need for some technical amendments. These would not impact the substance of the proposed offence but would be required to ensure legal accuracy and a consistency between the English and the French versions of the bill, and a consistency with the language used elsewhere in the Criminal Code.

A number of the amendments I'm going to discuss, Mr. Chair, deal exactly with that, perhaps with the exception of the one proposed by Mr. Seeback, which is more substantial.

With regard to the first amendment, this deals with clause 13 as well as with clause 2. The first motion would amend the long title of the French version on page 1 of the bill. This motion should be considered together with the motions that propose to amend the French and English versions of clause 2 and the French and English versions of clause 13.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

You're losing me totally.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

That's not correct, Mr. Goguen. What we've been presented with is that amendment G-7 is the one that changes the title, not amendment G-1.

Let me just tell you what I've been told. If amendment G-1 passes with changes, then amendment G-5 will automatically apply and so will amendment G-7. Those two automatically apply. Just so the committee isn't confused, the Conservatives want all three as a package.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Am I correct that it affects clauses 12 and 13?

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

I have amendment G-7, which is the title. Amendment G-5 is clause 13.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Clause 13 and G-7.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Clause 2—

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I'm talking about clauses 2 and 13 of the bill, but it has a bearing on amendments G-1 and G-5.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Amendment G5. Yes.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

The clauses and the motions are separate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

I know, but you started speaking—

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

We're talking about the title, and that is amendment G-7.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I apologize.

Are we back on track, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Yes, we understand what you're talking about.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Okay. According to what I have here, the bill proposes to add the new recruitment offence to the wiretap provisions of the Criminal Code, section 183. Clause 13 would add the new offences to those offences that are “primary designated offences” for the purpose of the DNA provisions, which are covered in section 487.04. Both of these clauses and the French long title describe the new offence as “recruitment...by a criminal organization”. A technical amendment is required to clarify for accuracy that the person doing the recruiting need not be a member of the criminal organization.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Could you slow down a little bit? They are having a little difficulty.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I'm sorry, this is being translated.