Justice Committee on May 1st, 2013

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

One person can answer that. I have another question I would like time for as well.

[Rose Dufour]

That is a specific question, but as you will understand, it is very difficult for us to answer it because we do not know the law. We are unable to grasp those kinds of distinctions. We only understand that the law must have more teeth so that these people are arrested for procuring, if I may put it that way. So that is how I view this proposal. We cannot do anything but support it. These men must be stopped.

Ms. Mourani's proposal requires these men to justify the money they make. That is already a first step because, until now, women had to prove that they had been exploited, whereas now these men will be required to prove that they acquired their big house and their money legally. Otherwise they will lose them. That is not a bad start. However, we need more. We need a strong act that stops them. We agree with you. We understand that this is what you want.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

I appreciate that comment. We want the objective met of stopping, of preventing, the activity, and sometimes the simplest solution won't do that. That's why we are exploring the alternatives to having zero flexibility here, which could drive the whole process into a different resolution that's not ideal.

The other thing it seems I'm hearing from all your testimony is that the legalization of prostitution is not in the interests of the kinds of outcomes you're looking for. Maintaining the criminality of the purchase of prostitution, while supporting the providers of prostitution, giving them the support and the means to exit, would be a better balance.

Can you describe some countries where that has been proven to reduce human trafficking and the problem we're addressing with this bill?

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

I would like both of you to be able to answer, so you'll have 30 seconds each.

[Rose Dufour]

Sweden did it in 1999 after liberalizing and accepting prostitution.

In the 1980s, it saw all the harm done and stopped it. Norway followed in 2008, as did Iceland in 2009. Iceland went even further. It prohibited stripping because it leads to prostitution. We believe that the revolution of this century will be the abolition of prostitution, following the abolition of slavery in the 19^th century and of the death penalty in the 20^th century. The major revolution will be the abolition of prostitution in the 21^st century.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Madame Duval.

[Céline Duval]

Thank you.

We definitely feel we need an "abolitionist" measure. There is no other solution. Even if you look at other countries, there is no way to be a partial customer or prostitute. You are one or you are not. We are saying this: "We want no more of it."

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Merci.

Thank you for the questions and those answers.

Our next questioner, from the Conservative Party, is Mr. Wilks.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your evidence today.

You've just brought up a very good point that I'd like to expand upon, and that is the link between young girls brought into the country to work as exotic dancers or strippers in strip joints and how that can lead to prostitution, if it hasn't already. As far as I'm concerned, one is linked to the other. They're controlled by criminal activity.

Would you give me your thoughts on how we deal with that portion of it, that link between these facilities that allow for exotic dancers...? We know that's just a link to prostitution in most cases—not all, but most. How can we stop that part of it? The prostitution part of it is an arm of that, and a lot of these women who are brought in from outside Canada, and from within Canada as well, are introduced to it through the strip clubs.

Your thoughts, please, Madame Dufour.

[Rose Dufour]

I find it hard to answer your questions because you need to be an expert.

I am going to tell you about my experience in the field in this area. It is even more serious than you think because the young women who are exotic dancers do not even consider themselves as prostitutes. The women who give erotic massages do not consider what they do as prostitution. In working with them, we lead them to see that offering their naked bodies for money constitutes prostitution because of the man's lecherous or perverted gaze. Watching is touching. We manage to make them understand. In my case, one young woman made me understand that dancing naked was prostitution.

They are recruited as artists. They are generally women who lack self-esteem, who have never been acknowledged in their own families and who are therefore extremely vulnerable. In the field, we are currently seeing a trivialization of prostitution. Young girls today are very vulnerable because the social model offered to them is that of the open girl who agrees to have many partners and—please pardon my crude language—who agrees to have a penis in every orifice. That is the model currently on offer. The model offered to boys comes from the Internet because no courses on sexuality are even offered any more. That at least is the case in Quebec. This is a major issue because we want sex education courses.

The situation is extremely tragic. The solution that Iceland hit upon was to decide that it was over. It enacted legislation providing that it is over and that there would be no more erotic dancing in Iceland. The country had previously abolished prostitution.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Madame Duval and Madame Bourget, do you have any comments?

[Céline Duval]

It is almost like the chicken or the egg. One of them leads to the other. If we put a stop to that, we should put a stop to every type of business, involving clothing, models and so on. Everywhere there is something that encourages this type of behaviour, wanting to seduce, wanting to look good, wanting to be a star. We see it in all the films, in all the video games and in a host of things, as a result of which the one leads to the other and that becomes normal, as Ms. Dufour said.

We have people who say they suffer no violence. However, when we explain to them what violence is, they say they are suffering it.

The same is true of prostitution. They have no idea that they engage in gestures and actions of a sexual nature.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Madame, do you have something to add?

[Rose Dufour]

Mr. Chair, thank you for the opportunity to add a brief comment on the subject.

The federal government is responsible for legislation concerning procuring, but municipal by-laws must also apply. Consequently, the municipalities must make a contribution.

I would like to say that there is a city in Quebec, Baie St-Paul, where the mayor at the time banned strip bars from her city, and that is still the case. That idea should therefore be spread and municipalities should decide to take these matters in hand.

I am personally preparing a file to present to the mayor of Quebec City so that that city becomes prostitution-free, but we are sharpening our pencils on that subject.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for that question and those answers.

Our next questioner is Madame Boivin from the New Democratic Party.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you.

Thank you, mesdames. That was definitely interesting, even though it did not necessarily concern the bill. I will not question you as though you were lawyers. That is not why you are here.

Ms. Dufour, you have given me a virtual course in sex education, at least much more than the nuns at the college I attended. They avoided many of the terms you used. We only saw photographs.

Having said that, I believe the issue is hugely important. As I said on Monday, when you come from a city like Gatineau, you do not think of procuring, prostitution or trafficking in persons. Those are dirty words. We imagine that they happen elsewhere, in exotic countries. It was my colleague Joy Smith's bill that in a way opened my eyes to this matter. Even if you read the news, you can never imagine that this happens in your own backyard and that certain types of behaviour in fact occur. This is a manner of speaking, but we are all somehow accessories to all that.

I think you put your finger on the problem. Even if we pass the most severe act there is, we will not be out of the woods. I can only imagine how police officers will enforce this act if it is passed. For example, we will not be able to solve all procuring and human trafficking crimes the day after the bill is passed. Even if there is a presumption, there is no certainty that the individual will not come and testify in favour of her procurer or that she will not refuse to testify. We have an enormous amount of work to do, and we will not resolve all this tomorrow morning. I do not want to end the meeting on a negative note, but I believe we have to end it on a realistic note. We have to be aware that much work remains to be done.

Incidentally, I appreciate the work you are doing at Afeas. I congratulate you on what you are doing in the field. It is extremely important. I appreciated my colleague's question. This does indeed form a whole. The Criminal Code is one of its aspects. As you said, the municipalities are also involved, but they must have by-laws. Not all municipalities have passed by-laws. That requires a certain will. Ms. Dufour, I mentioned the fact that we are accessories. However, permitting a strip bar to operate because it is pays a lot of taxes is a choice that municipalities make. That is part of this whole.

What I am going to say here is mainly a comment. I wanted to vent a little. I do not expect anyone to respond to what I am going to say.

Not so long ago, I went to a reserve in the Maniwaki region. Two young girls had disappeared and police officers spent some time starting an investigation. We all know that, if whites are not involved, it takes a certain amount of time. Authorities suggested that the girls had run away, but the parents were quite convinced that they might have been intercepted by procuring rings, even though the assumption that they had run away was partly justified. People do disappear that way.

We all did silly things when we were young. You can be very well brought up and have good values, but not being intercepted by a ring is sometimes a matter of luck. Things go well for some young people and they make it through. However, others are intercepted and that is unfortunate. They get into drugs and other things of that kind.

I simply mean that we must steer clear of magical thinking and avoid believing that passing a bill will solve everything. Sometimes, however, providing additional tools or sending a message may be equally important. Whatever the case may be, much work remains to be done. That is the only comment I wanted to make.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, madam.

Thank you for those comments.

Did you have a response?

[Rose Dufour]

I would like to make a comment. I am going to back to Mr. Jacob's question and Ms. Boivin's comments.

Over the past five or seven years, we have observed a major deterioration in prostitution conditions and in the situation of women in the field. It is women who tell us this. They tell us what is going on. I am reluctant to tell you everything because it is very crude, but conditions are deteriorating to a considerable degree.

I would like to emphasize that this high degree of deterioration is due to pornography. Pornography is filmed prostitution. We are not used to viewing it that way, and yet pornography is filmed prostitution. No one reacts to the impact of that pornography. No one reacts to that pornography, but it is insidious. These are the models that are offered to our young people.

My Afeas colleagues mentioned education. In response to Mr. Jacob, I believe we must take action on this issue of pornography, which is part of the sex industry. It appeared 30 or 35 years ago with the globalization of markets. The sex industry did not exist before then, and now it has become an extremely powerful lobby. That is due to the fact that, with the globalization of markets, everything is for sale, organs, human beings, sex and so on. We must take action on this matter.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Would you like to comment too, Madame?

[Madeleine Bourget]

I would also like to add something on that point.

As Ms. Dufour said, and as we are saying, I also think it would be important for victims to have a place to turn to. We understand the procurers and that entire phenomenon, but the victims have no way out. Is it possible to do something for them? Should we organize massive advertising campaigns? We should consider doing something. We think of Alcoholics Anonymous and other organizations, but where do the victims of prostitution go? Where can they turn?

We are talking about consecutive sentences, but we also have to think of the victims. There has to be a place for them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Albas, you have a couple of minutes.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Obviously, I want to thank all our witnesses for their testimony today. I've been informed that apparently it's a rule that you can't go past the time without unanimous consent, and I don't believe I will have it from my colleagues.

I'm just going to say, Mr. Chair, that I appreciate the work you're doing, and again, thank you, ladies, for being here today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for that, Mr. Albas.

I want to thank our witnesses for being here, and for their passion and the work they're doing to help victims. And thank you for bringing a light to these issues that we're facing here.

We will be dealing with this bill next Monday. Hopefully, we'll be going to clause-by-clause at that time.

With that, thank you very much. I'll adjourn the meeting.