Evidence of meeting #71 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prostitution.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Éliane Legault-Roy  Responsible for communications, Concertation des luttes contre l'exploitation sexuelle
Robert Hooper  Chair, Walk With Me Canada Victim Services
Rose Dufour  Director, Maison de Marthe
Céline Duval  President, Association féminine d'éducation et d'action sociale (Afeas)
Madeleine Bourget  Vice-President, Association féminine d'éducation et d'action sociale (Afeas)

4:45 p.m.

Céline Duval President, Association féminine d'éducation et d'action sociale (Afeas)

Thank you for agreeing to hear us, Mr. Chair.

I represent the Association féminine d'éducation et d'action sociale, or Afeas, an organization that was founded in 1966 and represents 10,000 Quebec women who work as volunteer members of 250 local groups in 11 regions of Quebec.

Afeas's mission is to advocate women's rights and to work to improve society as a whole, and we do so through education and concerted social action. Our values are peace, equality, equity, justice, respect and solidarity.

Afeas is a field organization. Its democratic structure encourages its members to express their views on social issues and their organization's strategic direction. A large percentage of our members are over 45 years of age and live outside the major centres.

Afeas has been working in all sectors of Quebec and Canadian society for 45 years. By its presence and realistic actions, it has established its credibility as a partner with the community's decision-making bodies and organizations.

I will now hand the floor over to Ms. Madeleine Bourget, our provincial vice-president, who is responsible for this file. She will present the brief she has prepared.

4:45 p.m.

Madeleine Bourget Vice-President, Association féminine d'éducation et d'action sociale (Afeas)

Good afternoon.

There is a close connection between prostitution and slavery. Slave women are the first ones exploited in brothels, followed by women from the poorer classes. According to the UN, more people are bought, sold and transported for sexual exploitation or other purposes today than during the 300 years of slavery. Slavery, although abolished 150 years ago, is still practised in our modern societies. There were 11.5 million victims of the African slave trade, whereas there have been 33 million victims of trafficking for prostitution in Southeast Asia alone.

Trafficking has been carried on differently in recent years, in recruitment, transportation and accommodation, in order to exploit women and children, who constitute the majority of its victims. There were nearly 5 million victims of sexual exploitation between 2002 and 2011. Annual profits generated by the exploitation of trafficking victims are estimated at more than $30 billion. In many places, trafficking governs the “economic health” of the sex industries, which includes pornography, prostitution, sexual tourism and, as mentioned earlier, erotic massage.

There are far more human victims of trafficking for prostitution purposes than there are of trafficking for domestic exploitation purposes or to provide cheap labour. Between 70% and 80% of prostitutes in Canada started working as prostitutes when they were children. There were an estimated 10,000 child prostitutes in Canada in 1997. The mortality rate of women and young girls involved in prostitution in Canada is 40 times higher than the national average. Women prostitutes represent 15% of suicides reported by American hospitals, and the figures are similar for France.

Prostitution is a form of violence in itself. The first act of violence is to subject prostitutes to the sexual pleasure of their customers. The second violent fact is that 90% of individuals become prostitutes as a result of sexual, physical and psychological violence. Kidnapping, rape, slaughter—there are slaughter camps in several European countries where human beings are sold—terror and murder are part of the process of “manufacturing the goods”. These are ways used to render prostituted individuals “functional”.

In the 10 years from 1990 to 2000, 77,500 young foreign women were the victims of traffickers. From 1999 to 2010, 200,000 young foreign women suffered the same treatment. It is often minors who are sold. They have tens and tens of contacts per day. Trafficking and prostitution have risen sharply over the past decade.

The procurers, or pimps, make an enormous amount of money at their victims' expense. They come in various forms: a spouse, someone who places newspaper ads or travel advertisements, a person who says he is your friend, but who is not, or someone in whom you have placed all your trust. Prostitution is not an occupation one chooses freely: it is a system of sexual exploitation. Prostituting oneself means losing one's personality, one's identity, but especially one's dignity.

Legalizing prostitution does not protect women any more than it does children. On the contrary, creating brothels makes them prisoners of the violence of their procurers and customers. Customers are convinced that they can do anything, that they have every right because they pay. In prostitution, the exchange of money does not reduce the level of violence and does not prove that the victims are consenting. On the contrary, it is proof of the rapists' premeditation and of the procurers' profit.

There are no customers, but rather male prostitution users who buy impunity from rape. There are no women, men or children leasing or selling sexual services: there are only victims of sexual violence who, at some point, are forced or compelled to be raped by strangers.

For many, prostitution is a necessary evil, an evil for the woman, but necessary for many men in satisfying their sexual needs. Some people even believe that prostitution can help prevent rape. The Conseil du statut de la femme believes that it is not the best way to calm men's sexual impulses.

Abolishing all forms of prostitution means attacking the rapists' impunity and starting to acknowledge that women and children are full-fledged human beings whose physical integrity may not be violated.

Abolishing the prostitution system is the only solution for living in a humane society. Prostitution has been regulated in the Netherlands since October 1, 2000. That legislation is simply a failure since only 4% of prostitutes are registered. This was supposed to put an end to the prostitution of minors. The Organization for Children's Rights estimates that the number of child prostitutes in the Netherlands rose from 4,000 in 1996 to 15,000 in 2001, including at least 5,000 of foreign origin.

As the Dutch, Greek and Austrian experience has shown, the number of legal prostitutes originally from those countries is gradually declining and the number of prostitutes who are clandestine, illegal or victims of trafficking is on the rise. Legalizing prostitution thus has not improved the lot of prostitutes.

The prostitution of children has risen significantly since legalization. The number of illegal brothels now exceeds the number of legal ones. The illegal industry is now out of control, and trafficking in women and children from other countries has risen sharply. The consequence of legalizing prostitution in certain regions of Australia has been clear growth in the industry.

In 1984, Afeas wanted all prostitution rings to be dismantled and called for severe penalties be imposed on individuals living from the avails of prostitution. At their most recent annual provincial conference last August, Afeas members adopted several positions on prostitution. For example, the association called for the passage of legislation prohibiting prostitution, the criminalization of prostitution customers, social policies to assist individuals wishing to leave the industry and sex education programs in the schools promoting healthy, equal sexuality.

Afeas, which represents 10,000 Quebec women, supports Bill C-452. That bill is entirely consistent with the positions the association adopted at its last conference. It was drafted based on numerous consultations, particularly with officers of the Montreal Police Service's morality section and sexual exploitation of children unit, the Barreau du Québec and women's and victims' rights advocacy groups.

Measures must be taken to facilitate the arrest of procurers and customers. Human trafficking generates more money than drugs. As Ms. Dufour said earlier, there are no resources to assist victims, to accommodate them or to help improve their situation.

Thank you.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you very much.

Our first questioner is from the New Democratic Party, Monsieur Jacob.

May 1st, 2013 / 4:55 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to our witnesses for being here.

I will confirm right off the bat that trafficking in persons is an odious crime and that we need to have political and legislative means to combat it. Bill C-452 is therefore a step in the right direction, but more must be done. In your opinion, what other measures could be taken to try to prevent trafficking in persons?

Who wants to start?

4:55 p.m.

Director, Maison de Marthe

Rose Dufour

That is a big question.

Every day, I try to find ways to assist women. The Maison de Marthe is engaged in a lot of political action so that one day prostitution will be abolished in Canada. How can we stop all that?

The person who is leaving the room spoke earlier about one way that I thought was excellent, and that is introducing severe penalties and sentences.

I cannot offer a ready answer to that kind of question. The entire world is currently considering the matter. There is international momentum in which all peoples, all countries are wondering what status prostitution should be given.

As you know, there are two opposing camps: those in favour of sex work and those in favour of abolishing prostitution.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Then I will clarify my question.

In your view, do victims receive the assistance and services they need?

4:55 p.m.

Director, Maison de Marthe

Rose Dufour

There are absolutely no resources to provide assistance to prostitutes. The very poor little organization where I have been a volunteer for 12 years survives on donations and volunteer work. It does not receive grants or government assistance. There is nothing. No one will ever give a woman the means to leave prostitution. There are not even any measures to assist her. At the Quebec City Detention Centre, where I went every week, the officers told me that the percentage of female inmates who had prostituted themselves once and were still doing so was probably around 75%.

Poverty is the backdrop to prostitution. Having documented the social systems that lead women to prostitute themselves, I can show you, based on my research, that, in 90% of cases, these women have been victims of sexual abuse or incest within the family. The second factor is the model of the prostitute mother. This is a factor in approximately 20% of cases. According to my research, the number of cases in which the mother was a prostitute is not very high, but the system is self-replicating. The mother herself was a victim of abuse, she is extremely poor, and so on.

The third factor is a spouse or a husband who is a pimp and who asks his wife to prostitute herself. She does so because she has already been a victim of abuse. There is thus an entire mechanism and structure. She is also emotionally dependent on the man. She does not choose to prostitute herself; she consents to do so.

The fourth factor is a combination of running away, youth and poverty. Of the women I met, 40% started prostituting themselves as minors, in other words before they had attained the age of majority, which is 18 in Canada. If it were 21, as in the United States, the percentage of women prostituting themselves as minors would be 75%.

That last factor is obviously the fact that these women live in an environment—

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

We should also let the other witnesses answer the same questions.

Madame Duval.

5 p.m.

President, Association féminine d'éducation et d'action sociale (Afeas)

Céline Duval

We are an education and social action organization, and we work in the field. We believe it is a priority to teach children, within the family, in the community, at school and in all other places where they grow up, self-respect and respect for others as well as egalitarian values.

Men have a value and women do as well. Men and women all have a right to be respected. They have a right to express their point of view and to say no when the answer is no. We want to convince young girls of this fact, but that is somewhat difficult. The media, advertising, hypersexualization and other related factors do not contrive to make a child's life easy.

5 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Thank you.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you very much for those questions and answers.

Our next questioner, from the Conservative Party, is Mr. Goguen.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question will be short, and I'll share my time with Mrs. Smith, if there is any time left.

Thank you for coming to testify here today.

I believe you will agree that this bill contains very important proposals for combating the criminal activity concerned, including the reverse burden of proof and consecutive sentences. I noticed that Ms. Dufour was particularly interested in stiff sentences.

I would like to draw your attention to the fact that, in November 2012, Bill C-10, the Safe Streets and Communities Act, was introduced—and has in fact come into force—to completely eliminate any possibility that individuals convicted of trafficking in persons might receive a conditional sentence. A conditional sentence is a sentence imposed by a judge permitting the accused to serve a sentence at home.

Do you agree that ruling out that possibility is important in combating this kind of criminal activity?

5 p.m.

Director, Maison de Marthe

Rose Dufour

Having visited women in prison and having worked with them for a long time, I am astounded to see the number of years they spend incarcerated for shoplifting, violence in a public place and so on.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

If my understanding is correct, you feel these individuals should not be able to serve their sentences at home.

5 p.m.

Director, Maison de Marthe

Rose Dufour

That is correct.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

You are unanimous on that.

5 p.m.

President, Association féminine d'éducation et d'action sociale (Afeas)

Céline Duval

Yes, that is correct.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Bravo.

I hand the floor over to Ms. Smith.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much for coming to committee today. We appreciate it.

As you know, we're talking about human trafficking. Research is showing us that it's primarily underage youths who are duped and deceived into servicing men, and if they don't do it, they get beaten, raped, shot up with drugs. I've worked with victims for 14 years now, so that's the way it happens.

As you know, in this country, Bill C-49 was the first bill, in 2005, that addressed human trafficking. They got one conviction, Imani Nakpangi. He trafficked a 15-and-a-half-year-old girl. You know about that one. Then Bill C-268 and Bill C-310 came in, in 2010 and 2012. Now we have this bill before us today.

I ran out of time on the other session, but this is why we don't have all the hard statistics, because the bills are so new. They are brand new in Canada.

You mentioned something that I thought was so relevant. I want to talk to Ms. Duval. You talked about human dignity. You talked about the right for people to be free, the right for them to make their own choices. Can you tell me, in terms of this bill of Maria Mourani's, why this is so important to help the victims of human trafficking?

5:05 p.m.

President, Association féminine d'éducation et d'action sociale (Afeas)

Céline Duval

For us, prostitution is not a choice and it is not an occupation. It is a situation that someone experiences at some point. When a person "decides" to engage in prostitution, that is because it is the last solution the individual has found in order to survive. I said in order to survive, not in order to live. This is not an occupation; it is not a job, and no mother dreams that her daughter will become a prostitute. That is not part of a beautiful plan for anyone's future. It is an unfortunate, violent and difficult situation that destroys the person's integrity and the person herself.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Can I just interrupt you, Ms. Duval? What we're finding now is that this can happen to any girl, whether they are from middle-class Canada, whether they come in from another country, or whether they're aboriginal—this can happen to any vulnerable girl. It is a misconception that it's just the poor. I grew up poor, and that's not the reason why this happens to them. The reason it happens is they are targeted, and the guys, as you suggested, Ms. Bourget, make huge money out of these victims.

Having said that, there was a national action plan that our government put in place in June 2012, and that's for the rehabilitation of victims and for the education of police officers. Going back to this particular bill, Ms. Bourget, could you tell the committee why this bill fills in some of the gaps that need to be filled in to help the victims of human trafficking?

5:05 p.m.

Vice-President, Association féminine d'éducation et d'action sociale (Afeas)

Madeleine Bourget

I would like to say that these people, these victims, whether they have suffered incest, rape or other acts, are ruined for life. We talk about dignity. They have lost it and that has a major effect on many areas of their lives for years. The loss of self-confidence and the loss of trust in others are very important matters. I believe this is somewhat consistent with what Mr. Goguen said a little earlier. I cannot be in favour of sentences being served at home. I support Ms. Mourani. We need very stiff sentences because I do not think a person who does that can be easily cured. We are talking about people who make money on the backs of women and children. I would be afraid of that because the victims already have to make a considerable effort to pull through. The victims are very weak and they need to recover.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you, madam.

Our next questioner is from the Liberal Party, Ms. Murray.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Thank you.

Thank you very much for your work. This is a very important issue.

As you surely know, my colleague Irwin Cotler, who was Minister of Justice, introduced a similar bill. Ms. Mourani's bill adds new elements. This issue is a concern for us. We support this bill because it makes major changes.

However, we are concerned about two provisions. It is important to discuss them in order to find the best solution for everyone.

I'd like to touch on both of those.

One of them is concurrent sentencing versus consecutive sentencing. We all feel horrified by the kinds of abuse we've been hearing about. It's tempting to think we'll lock someone up and throw away the key, but as one of the members said earlier in the committee, the reality is there are other avenues, like plea bargaining and so on, that will take place that don't achieve that objective.

Mr. Wilks pointed out that if there's a mandatory 30-day suspension of your car, that will prevent you from driving drunk. But we're talking about a different scale. We're talking about 48 years. With respect, I think it diminishes and minimizes this discussion to use that kind of example in terms of deterrence.

There is another way of approaching the norm of concurrent sentencing, and that could be to legislate to reverse that norm, but without removing all discretion. For example, it could be wording like, “The courts shall apply a consecutive sentence unless it is deemed contrary to the interests of justice.”

Can you comment on the idea for the judge to have some ability to apply judgment in a situation where the judge may deem it is not in the interests of justice to apply a consecutive sentence?

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Do you want both of them to answer, Ms. Murray?