Evidence of meeting #10 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-10.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:05 a.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Okay, good.
Now you mentioned the use of tobacco on reserves. Did the Canadian Cancer Society do a study on that? You mentioned the use of tobacco on reserves compared to off reserve.
9:05 a.m.
Senior Policy Analyst, Canadian Cancer Society
No, that was a national study.
9:05 a.m.
Senior Policy Analyst, Canadian Cancer Society
Done for the federal government.
9:05 a.m.
Conservative
9:10 a.m.
Senior Policy Analyst, Canadian Cancer Society
There have been a number of studies, but the most recent one was about four years ago.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
9:10 a.m.
Senior Policy Analyst, Canadian Cancer Society
There's a 59% prevalence among on-reserve first nations individuals.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Okay.
When the native leaders were here last week, they mentioned this bill doesn't give them an exemption for the export of product for ceremonial use.
Does that make a lot of sense to you?
9:10 a.m.
Senior Policy Analyst, Canadian Cancer Society
I see no impediment to the trade in tobacco for ceremonial use. In regard to the use of tobacco for traditional ceremonies or religious practices, keep in mind that modern cigarettes have nothing to do with traditional ceremonial aboriginal practices. In terms of the quantities in this bill, I see no problem whatsoever.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Okay.
You mentioned that young people in particular are susceptible to the price of tobacco, and so tobacco taxes work with respect to keeping young people from getting started on tobacco.
In my city of Mississauga studies have shown that a large percentage of cigarette butts, and I think Madam Boivin mentioned a number, about 46% of cigarette butts—perhaps that was nationally, I'm not sure where, but certainly in Mississauga it's a very large percentage—found around schoolyards are actually contraband tobacco.
Can you tell us how difficult it is for people to kick the tobacco habit if they get started at that young age?
9:10 a.m.
Senior Policy Analyst, Canadian Cancer Society
Nicotine is highly addictive. The U.S. Surgeon General has concluded it's as addictive as heroin and cocaine. So it's essential that we prevent kids from starting.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
This question is for all of you, or for anyone who wishes to answer.
Do you have any thoughts on who's selling these cigarettes to school kids in a place like Mississauga? We're at least 100 kilometres away from the nearest reserve where they could go and buy the cigarettes directly. In my view, the vast majority of these school kids are not driving down to Brantford, Ontario, to the Six Nations reserve and buying the cigarettes themselves. Somebody is bringing it to them. Do you have any views on who is selling these products?
9:10 a.m.
Director, Quebec Office, Non-Smokers' Rights Association
It's probably people who are going on the reserves and coming back with truckloads of cigarettes. They're not being caught when they drive away from the reserves. Then they go into their neighbourhoods and distribute these products even to kids.
I'm taking Quebec as an example. We discussed with them. We said it's very important to address the source of the contraband, which is blocking what's coming from the reserve. But you also have to address what's going on in neighbourhoods.
The Quebec government created what is called the access committee in 2000. The access committee set aside a budget to put special teams of investigators—there are about 10 of them—across the province in the most important municipalities. There are also roaming investigators from the QPP, who go everywhere to address what's happening on the ground, in the communities.
We don't see that in Ontario. That's missing. One of the problems we're seeing is that it's not necessarily considered a priority, considering the budget cuts to many police forces.
Having the funds available to create these special teams worked in Quebec. Actually, the drop in contraband has been far more effective in Quebec compared to Ontario. So if that were available and you had these investigators working in communities, it would seriously help with that kind of situation, where we're seeing kids get their sources of contraband tobacco in their neighbourhoods.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Do any of you have a view on what other products the people who are selling tobacco to kids might also be offering for sale?
9:10 a.m.
Director, Quebec Office, Non-Smokers' Rights Association
This is conjecture on my part. One of the problems we're seeing, and what the RCMP is reporting, is that with the trafficking of tobacco, there is exchange sometimes for illegal drugs as well. So that might be a problem, where illegal drugs, as well, are going into the communities.
But for me, I have no evidence of that. It's the RCMP who has that information.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace
Thank you for those questions and those answers.
Our next questioner, from the Liberal Party, is Mr. Casey.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Welcome.
All of you have talked about Bill C-10 as one component in a bigger strategy. Mr. Cunningham, you had some specific examples. And Mr. Damphousse, you have with you a list that I think you're going to leave behind.
My question is for Mr. Arango. You have heard the others flesh out a little bit what a more comprehensive strategy would look like. You referred to it. I'd be interested in hearing your further comments as to what else government and others should be doing over and above Bill C-10.
December 10th, 2013 / 9:15 a.m.
Director, Health Policy, Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada
Thank you very much.
It's like anything else. Generally speaking, you never have a magic-bullet solution to problems. They're usually multi-pronged. It's exactly the same situation with tobacco consumption and with contraband consumption.
Certainly with respect to contraband and first nations communities, one other potential solution—and I'm sure you would have heard this from the persons who have testified on behalf of first nations—is to address the issue of social determinants in their communities.
Poverty reduction is important. It's not easy, of course. However, if you address poverty reduction and you give people employment opportunities, it is less likely they're going to engage in contraband trafficking. That is most certainly part of the solution as well—employment and poverty reduction.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Thank you.
Mr. Cunningham, you talked about unlicensed factories. I wonder if you could expand a little more on what we know of unlicensed factories.
9:15 a.m.
Senior Policy Analyst, Canadian Cancer Society
Based on reports from the RCMP and others, on Kahnawake near Montreal, there are about ten; there's one on Tyendinaga, near Belleville; and there are maybe a dozen or so on Six Nations near Brantford. Those are in Canada. On the U.S. side of Akwesasne, there were 10 a couple of years ago, but it may be slightly less than that now. These are the primary sources. Well over 90% of the contraband in Canada originates from these unlicensed factories.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Thank you.
As part of the overall strategy to combat contraband, you mentioned Canada's signing an international treaty with the World Health Organization. I'd be interested to hear a little more about that, especially the reasons that we haven't signed on yet. To the best of your understanding, what are the impediments standing in the way of our joining in? And what will the impact be?
9:15 a.m.
Senior Policy Analyst, Canadian Cancer Society
There's still an opportunity to sign. It was approved in November 2012. Countries are now in the process of signing it. Canada was an active player in the negotiations. The Canadian delegation was satisfied with the content at the conclusion of negotiations. I know this is something the Canadian government is considering.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
I recall a few years back—at least 10 years—where there was a dramatic cut across the country in taxes on tobacco. The rationale at the time was contraband. All of you have been unanimous that lower taxes aren't an impediment. I wonder, and this is open to whoever wants to answer it, if you can comment on that experience. You're all nodding your heads so you all know the timeframe of which I speak, although I may be vague on it. You're in the business. Talk to us about that timeframe, what brought it on, and what we learned.