Justice Committee on May 15th, 2014

[Chief Jim Chu]

It's our belief those immunity provisions already exist. It's just a housekeeping measure that was thrown in. But under the law and under case law, it already exists.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

So you don't believe that this really changes the real situation on the ground, Commissioner Oliver?

[A/Commr Joe Oliver]

I would just echo the views of Chief Chu that the provision already exists in the Criminal Code.

My only commentary is that, and I'm not speaking specifically to this issue, the Canadian policing model is developed on the notion of the police are the community and the community are the police. The reality is that the police cannot operate in a vacuum, where we compel everything. We have to rely on the cooperation of citizens, witnesses, and third parties all the time in our investigations. There was an example provided earlier about an armed robbery that may have taken place in a shopping mall. We may have witnesses that observed that, if they come to the police and provide information to us, the mall may have video that we go and try to acquire. We're trying all of these things in a timely manner, because if this is particularly a serial robbery team, then we want to get on that team as soon as possible.

If someone is prepared to cooperate, we see that as fundamental to policing in Canada. It's a partnership to community safety.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for those questions and answers.

Our next questioner is from the Conservative Party, Mr. Brown.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

I think my colleague, Kyle Seeback, wants 30 seconds.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

I do. Thank you, Patrick.

When we're talking about the preservation demand, which is what Mr. Garrison was talking about, and the concern about the lower threshold, which is reasonable grounds to suspect, I think you answered it quite clearly, but I just want to be sure.

The preservation demand just preserves the data for a limited amount of time, and then if the police want to come back and see that data, they have to then get a production order, which is at the higher standard, which is the reasonable grounds to believe, right? It's just to preserve at a lower threshold as part of what may become an investigation. Is that correct?

[Chief Jim Chu]

That's correct.

[A/Commr Joe Oliver]

That's correct, depending on the type of information we're seeking.

If it is just looking for the hop between networks—we rely on other new provisions in here—without any personal information, just the communication between different networks, that could be at the “reasonable grounds to suspect” level. However, other provisions would be at the “reasonable grounds to believe” level.

It all depends on the circumstances and the precise.... And that's the clarity of these tools. They're very precise in what they allow us to do. So the definition of “transmission data” and what it includes is very clear.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

That's great, thanks.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you.

I guess one of the challenges is how fast technology evolves. I think, based on what we've heard before this committee, it's fair to say cyberbullying is on the rise, unfortunately. When we think of some of the means whereby things can be communicated really quickly, we're talking about having Facebook and obviously Twitter, but talking to younger cousins or younger friends, one thing I learn is that there is always something new. It's incredible how widely they're used. I just looked up Snapchat, and it said 700 million photos and videos are distributed every day. The target audience is teenagers. Does this bill give you the tools to keep up with technology? Because what we're dealing with today could be just as difficult or even harder a few years from now. We know that app certainly has impressions, when you talk about concerns about the distribution of intimate images, obviously some of those users use tools like that. How do you keep pace with this evolving technology, and is this bill adequate to do that?

[Chief Jim Chu]

This bill is definitely in the right direction. It modernizes many parts of the Criminal Code that in reality bear the nature of the crime that's committed in an online environment. Five years from now we may have to come back to Parliament and ask for different legislation, but for today it's a great start.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

We're looking at the profile of the cyberbully, and I think there certainly are different impressions when you look at cyberbullying among youth. Could you maybe aid the committee and give us your profile of the average cyberbully, based on age and geography?

[Chief Jim Chu]

It's an easy question to answer. Think back to your grade 7 class and picture the bully. Now picture that same grade 7 class, anyone in the class can be the bully. That's the difference.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

With no regard to gender, age, or geography...?

[Chief Jim Chu]

That's correct.

Whereas people before would engage in face-to-face bullying, and then you would know who they were: it could be the shyest, quietest, most respectful kid in the back of the room who has received some slight or is angry; or it could be a bunch of girls who don't like Suzie because of the way she dressed. Thos are all real examples that happen today. This is why prevention is so important. It is always why early intervention is so important, because in the majority of these cases we seem to find out who did it, but it's not going to lead to criminal charges. That would bog down the criminal justice system. We are peace officers and we're trying to prevent crime. That's our primary objective.

[A/Commr Joe Oliver]

The only item I would add is that given the Internet, the location could be anywhere globally, individuals may take on a persona whereby they portray themselves as a 14-year-old, they start a relationship, they get each other to exchange intimate images, then it turns out to be a predator who is now extorting more graphic images and threatening to post those images on Facebook to all their friends if they don't comply with the demands of the predator.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

When you look at that one app, 700 million a day; it's phenomenal.

There's a comment from Halifax.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Chief Blais, the floor is yours.

[Chief Jean-Michel Blais]

Thank you.

I wanted to add to what the assistant commissioner mentioned about the geographic boundaries. We have to get out of the mindset that this can occur in the same town, in the same province, for that matter. As I spoke before about the whole notion of digital natives as opposed to digital immigrants, the young kids today have grown up with that. I have an 11-year-old boy who is considerably more articulate than I am, and able to use everything in our house from a technological point of view. His network of friends go well beyond the borders of Canada, they go into Europe and everywhere else. When you get into the anonymous aspect of what the Internet provides, and other technologies are providing as well, then it's very difficult to be able to get an idea of where people are going. It's a really important point that in the years to come, technology will increase and change, the complexity and sophistication will be even more difficult. I believe that Chief Chu was absolutely right. I would expect us to be back in a few years asking for more tools.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for those questions and answers.

Our next questioner is Mr. Jacob, from the New Democratic Party.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to our witnesses for being with us today.

My first question goes to Mr. Chu, Mr. Pardy, Mr. Oliver and Mr. Blais. I am very pleased to learn that prevention is very important for you. As the old saying goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. It continues to be true in 2014.

In your respective parts of the country, what are the main programs you have established with schools and community organizations?

Mr. Chu, you can start.

[Chief Jim Chu]

We have strong partnership with our school boards. We have bilingual brochures that regularly go out to parents which are multilingual. We also have a partnership with a community provider, Telus Cares. That brings, again, awareness of proper protocols and safety measures you can take over the Internet.

We also refer people to several websites, NeedHelpNow.ca, and stopcyberbullying.org, many great resources as well.

[A/Commr Joe Oliver]

I defer to my colleague who has more intimate knowledge of prevention efforts.

[Insp Mercer Armstrong, Officer in Charge of Policy and Compliance, Contract and Aboriginal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

In the RCMP across the country, community involvement and especially involvement with our youth are extremely important. Because of that we have developed a number of programs, not just within the RCMP but also in cooperation with various other organizations.

A little earlier in his introduction, Assistant Commissioner Oliver mentioned a partnership with PREVnet, Promoting Relationships and Eliminating Violence Network; and the University of Victoria with regard to the WITS program. However, that is combined with a number of other efforts that we have. Within the RCMP we have developed a curriculum that is used by our members in the classrooms of our schools across the country and is available also to those teachers in the schools. It's not only available to them; all the material that we have on cyberbullying and other types of youth issues is on our public Internet site. Not only can the RCMP use these things but also people from the public, whatever community organization they may be with. All of that material is there ready for them to use.

To give you a little bit of an idea with regard to the type of material that is there, we have self-assessment materials for young people to use. One is called “Cyberbullying–Delete it From Your Online Life!”, as well as “Bullying–Has It Happened to Me?” Then we have connections to many organizations including the Red Cross and a number of other organizations. They provide excellent material that is available not only to the people who want to prevent bullying, but also the young people themselves, to get help and to point them to places where they can get help right across the country. That's just a little bit of what we've done in the RCMP.

All of our front line members are expected to be involved in the communities, and so in the contract provinces, not including Ontario and Quebec but everywhere else in the country where we are the basically the provincial police, all of our members are involved in dealing with community issues, and in the schools, and dealing with these problems.