Evidence of meeting #33 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was workers.
A video is available from Parliament.
Prof. Janine Benedet
I think we have to be a little bit careful about that because in fact we've had in the last few years in Vancouver several murders of women who have been prostituting either out of their homes or in trick pads that are used for that.
Conservative
Prof. Janine Benedet
In terms of degrees of danger, the reality is that taking the very same women who were on the street and moving them indoors.... It's not the location that is dangerous; it's the men who seek out those women.
So ultimately it's the women who are at the bottom of the social hierarchy in whatever country you're in that have to endure the most brutal and degrading forms of prostitution, whether indoors or outdoors.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Can you comment on the ethnicity of the people who comprise most of the street prostitution in New Zealand? Do you have any information on that?
Prof. Janine Benedet
Yes. Many of the reports that have been done have shown in many Canadian cities that the concentration of aboriginal women in street prostitution vastly outnumbers their representation in the population. Certainly we see that in Vancouver. We see that in Winnipeg. I know Andrew Swan, the Attorney General of Manitoba, has really made a point of highlighting that as well.
I think there's no question that there's disproportionate representation of aboriginal women on the street.
Conservative
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
I'd like to go to Ms. Sayers' perspective on this.
Ms. Sayers, you work with indigenous women, you said, here in Canada. What is your understanding of the situation in New Zealand? Who are the women who are largely on the street there? Are they indigenous? Was there any reduction when they moved to this new model?
Spokesperson, Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform
In 2007 there was a survey done on over 700 Maori sex workers. That's the reference to their specific nation. They did say that they were no longer under the threat of violence, but they also reported that they felt safer in reporting violence not just from clients but also violence from the public. We have to remember that violence comes in many forms and not just from clients. As I stated in my presentation, it includes institutional and systemic violence.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Would you say that there are the same number of indigenous women on the streets of New Zealand today as there were before they changed their laws?
Spokesperson, Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform
There was no change, but that's not the—
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
No, I heard the rest of it, but I just wanted to clarify that point.
Spokesperson, Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform
Yes, but they feel more safe in reporting incidents of violence, which is the key.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
I'd like to hear from Professor Lowman on this point. He mentioned that total decriminalization is the way he thinks Canada ought to go. He also mentioned zoning bylaw restrictions, and that where the city decides it's going to be in a particular place isn't necessarily a way of making it safer. I'd like to hear from him on where he thinks street prostitution would be safer. What kinds of bylaws would he be in favour of supporting or does he think would be useful in making street prostitution safer for prostitutes? Can he give us any insight into the New Zealand experience in that regard?
Prof. John Lowman
My first instinct is to say that we all seem to be expecting a silver bullet, a panacea, and there isn't one out there. This is a very complicated situation. I would like to see prostitution taken off the street, but I realize when I'm talking about women in the Downtown Eastside and we talk about them going indoors, there's no indoors for them to go to. They're homeless. Their involvement in prostitution is a reflection of many other problems.
What we've noticed over the years in Vancouver is that whenever police have simply had an initiative against prostitution in certain residential areas, it automatically gets displaced. But the displacement is often unintentional. When you have a situation where the police say, “Okay, don't work in this area, work in this area”, the women move. The reason I mention bylaws is that you could presumably set up some kind of zone where some kinds of business activities would be generically regulated, and this could apply to other kinds of prostitution locations where they would be located. The most important part of whatever kind of regulation would be introduced in that vision, the most important thing, is to involve the people who are going to be regulated, i.e., the sex workers, the people whom we never ask about what kinds of regulations would make sense to them.
That's why I don't just come out with a particular plan of action. One needs to sit down with the people who these laws would apply to, to find out what would make sense for them, because if it doesn't make sense for them it isn't going to work.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace
Can you briefly comment on New Zealand and then we have to wrap up, Professor.
Professor, can you hear me?
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
What is your view of the New Zealand experience in that regard? What is the experience in New Zealand with respect to the regulation of where street prostitution is allowed to be carried out?
Prof. John Lowman
I'm not fully conversant with exactly how the legislation of street prostitution works. We know that street prostitution still exists. There has not been a silver bullet, but I think if you go through the research, there's a lot more to discuss about the New Zealand experience than we heard today.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace
Okay. Thank you very much.
Thank you to all of our witnesses for coming.
We will be having committee meetings—we have another one after this—until Thursday at 5:30, and then the committee will decide what they'll do next. The meetings are all televised, so you can watch or come if you want.
Thank you very much for your testimony.
With that, we will adjourn until 3:30 p.m.