Justice Committee on July 7th, 2014

[Jean McDonald]

It is not my end goal. Exit is not my end goal. I do actually support people who come to me and say, I want to start looking for another job. We are actually planning to have a workshop about how to write a resumé and how to do a cover letter. We offer our clients a space where they can use our computers and do print outs, those kinds of things.

But the thing is this. People know that when they come to Maggie's they're not going to be judged. They're not going to be told that they're bad or that they should want to leave. They're not going to be told, such as the woman from Walk With Me said earlier, that they can build their healing journey in jail. What was that even?

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

No one is suggesting that, and there are no provisions in this bill to put prostitutes in jail.

[Jean McDonald]

Yes, there are. I absolutely—

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

No, there aren't.

[Jean McDonald]

There are.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

No, there aren't. We're talking about summary convictions, which do not lead to criminal records of any kind.

[Jean McDonald]

What if they're working with—

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

This is my time, Mr. Chair.

[Jean McDonald]

What if they're working in an area where there are youth 18 or younger?

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Ms. Falle, may I ask you how you got out?

[Natasha Falle]

Yes. It's been my experience that most of us have had to hit rock bottom in order to get out, which means near death experiences, mental health issues, or being institutionalized. Sometimes jail actually gives us the opportunity to have that time to be able to think about our life circumstances. Obviously jail is not an exit program, as might have been implied by others.

I managed to get out because I....

I was in the sex trade industry for 12 years. I was forced, and I also sold independently. I have sold sex in illegal establishments and legal establishments. I went for 10 of those 12 years never using hard drugs. In fact, I discriminated against people who did use drugs.

The trauma caught up with me. I've been sexually assaulted by a driver for escorts. The escort drivers who were driving me from A to B were coke dealers; it was easily accessible. A trauma incident happened. I didn't know how to cope and I did turn to cocaine. I spent two years on cocaine and developed a drug-induced schizophrenia. That was a pretty scary experience for me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you.

Our next group of questioners is from the New Democratic Party.

Madam Péclet, go ahead.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is a fascinating discussion.

I'd like to preface my questions with the same comments I made at our last meeting. It's important to know that we aren't trying to figure out which lawyer or which research is right. What we are actually trying to do is comply with the essence of the Supreme Court's decision and arrive at the best legislation to protect the life, liberty and security of men and women in the prostitution industry.

After hearing what a number of witnesses had to say, I think we can all agree that there's a problem when it comes to the advertising piece. The government has attempted to criminalize clients rather than prostitutes. But I would say that a consensus exists around the fact that the ban on advertising in public places poses a problem.

I'd like to hear Ms. McDonald's comments on the subject. If the idea is to criminalize only clients, what impact will the advertising ban and the de facto criminalization of sex workers have on the ground?

[Jean McDonald]

Well, what I can do is tell you about the sex workers who do advertise online and in newspapers. Their concern with this legislation is that first, it will be difficult for them to reach clients because many of them use third-party websites. I won't mention their names—I was going to but...they are very concerned about that.

The other thing they are concerned about is that many workers will work with buddies, or do “duos” basically is the name for it. They are worried that if they list their friends on their website, they could be criminalized for it.

There is another issue. It is my understanding—and maybe you can correct me if it's a wrong reading—that even if your advertisements are put up by yourself, you aren't criminally responsible, but those can actually be forceably taken down by the courts. That also basically bans advertising.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I'd like the other witnesses to answer that quickly, if they would.

Ms. Falle, do you agree that the ban on advertising does, after all, result in the criminalization of sex workers?

[Natasha Falle]

No, of course I don't agree. The bill clearly highlights that the people who sell sex are victims of this industry. I don't see their point.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

No. I mean they have an interdiction—I'm sorry, I'm not very good in English—of publicity in a public….

[Natasha Falle]

Yes.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

So, they are criminalized if they do advertise for themselves in a public area.

[Natasha Falle]

I thought Mrs. Smith already addressed that.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Then you don't agree. Thank you.

Sorry, I don't have a lot of time and I would like to talk to Mr. Swan about the $20 million. I think it's very important that instead of implementing a bill that would target the consequences of a situation, why not try to target the problematic at its source? Why not say that social factors unfortunately make some people more vulnerable than others, so why not try to implement something, such as financial programs or whatever, to target the problematic at its source? We're talking about reducing poverty.

If we're talking about achieving equality between men and women, then why not target poverty? We know that unfortunately, women usually live in a greater state of poverty than do men. Can you elaborate on that?

[Andrew Swan]

Sure. I mean, one of the reasons I'm here as a Manitoban is that, of course, we have the tragedy of missing and murdered aboriginal women. Now, just so it's clear, not every aboriginal woman who goes missing or is murdered has been sexually exploited. But if you are an aboriginal women who is being sexually exploited, your odds are not good.

We know from the work that's been done....and I know that Joy Smith and Irene Mathyssen and others were on a committee that looked at human trafficking several years ago. Many of the recommendations include ways to deal with poverty, to deal with education for first nations, where many of the young people are being trafficked from. You're absolutely right that there is much to be done on poverty, on housing, on educational opportunities. That doesn't change the fact that I believe, with the amendments I've asked for, that Bill C-36 goes a great way further downstream to try to prevent loss and damage and more tragedies.

But you're right, there are many big questions to be answered.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for those questions and answers.

Our final questioner this afternoon is Monsieur Goguen. We'll go a couple of minutes past, because we started a couple of minutes late.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be brief.

My question will be directed to you, Minister Swan. Obviously Manitoba appears in its enforcement to have adopted the Nordic model. In the Nordic model, of course, the prostitutes are not charged, correct?

You had concerns with clause 15, of course, that prostitutes would be charged if they were selling their goods in a public place. Of course, the intent in that provision is to not expose children to what prostitution can be.

Now, we all know that when a prosecution is undertaken, it's done in a couple of steps. Basically, the police have enforced their discretion. The crown has enforced its discretion. We know from discussions with other police forces that prior to Bedford, what the police forces would do is they would actually arrest the prostitutes, because they'd have a legal authority to do so; would question them; and would inquire as to whether or not they were victimized or whether there was some way that they could get information about the pimps, those who were victimizing them. They would not charge them, but would then direct them to services that might extract them from the industry. So if you're not charging the prostitutes, you're sort of taking away that possibility—although ultimately they're not charged.

If this bill were amended to require the Attorney General to consent to the charges going forward, would that change your point of view?

[Andrew Swan]

Look, if you've been picked up for communicating or for whatever the new section will be called, then you do have the sword of Damocles hanging over your head. Are the police going to lay a charge if you don't give up information on somebody or on something else? I don't think that's a helpful way to deal with the issue.

Again, in Manitoba, not just our crown attorneys but also the Winnipeg Police Service and our other police services are very reluctant to lay charges in any circumstances, because they recognize the difference between sellers of sex and buyers of sex.

Looking at the Bedford decision, in my letter to Minister MacKay I quoted from the chief justice's comments, as follows:

As the application judge found, street prostitutes, with some exceptions, are a particularly marginalized population. Whether because of financial desperation, drug addictions, mental illness, or compulsion from pimps, they often have little choice but to sell their bodies for money. Realistically, while they may retain some minimal power of choice—that the Attorney General of Canada called “constrained choice”—these are not people who can be said to be truly “choosing” a risky line of business.

With those comments of the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, if we don't amend this bill to remove those provisions, this will be a red flag for a challenge to this bill. I don't know if it will be successful or not. I think the chief justice, speaking for the court, has been pretty blunt about that. We think there are better ways to assist victims of sexual exploitation than to have the threat of criminal prosecution hanging over their heads.

Again, I do represent an area where unfortunately people do see street prostitution. I can tell you, from speaking with my constituents, taking off my Attorney General hat and putting on my hat as the member of the legislature for Minto, that the great majority of people in my area, I'm quite satisfied in saying, understand the need for a differential response and that the old law did not make sense. The provisions that were struck down in the Bedford case have some challenges. This is our chance to get it right. I don't think we do that by continuing to criminalize people who are the most vulnerable.