Justice Committee on July 8th, 2014

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

I just want to interject, because this one might take a little longer.

Under the new provisions in the bill, proposed subsection 213(1.1) states:

Everyone is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction who communicates with any person—for the purpose of offering or providing sexual services for consideration—in a public place, or in any place open to public view, that is or is next to a place where persons under the age of 18 can reasonably be expected to be present.

That's similar to when a person who's arrested, for argument's sake, for a sex assault being put on a recognizance that says they cannot go near schools, playgrounds, etc.

Can I get your perspective on that section, if you have reviewed it, Chief Hanson, and hear what you think?

[Chief Rick Hanson]

Again, I think it allows us the opportunity to address issues where there are serious risks to kids associated with the provision of a particular service like this.

I mean, we do get a lot of concerns related to issues and circumstances around schools, playgrounds, day care centres, and you can go on and on. We need the authority to be able to do something.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for the questions and answers.

Our next questioner, from the New Democratic Party, is Mr. Jacob. Welcome.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here today.

My first question is for Emily Symons.

How helpful are affordable housing and poverty reduction measures in terms of supporting sex workers who want to leave prostitution?

[Emily Symons]

Sorry, could someone repeat that in English? I didn't quite hear it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Could we repeat the translation, please?

[Emily Symons]

Thank you.

The question is with regard to how addressing poverty and addressing social housing can impact the sex industry. I think what it will do, not just for the sex industry but for work in general, is to give people more options. Giving people more options to make the choice of what form of labour they wish to engage in is a positive thing.

I'm sorry, I can normally understand French. It was just a little bit quiet, so....

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Okay.

Mr. Jacob.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

My second question is for Rick Hanson.

You talked about mental health and drug dependency in your presentation. In your view, are the mental health and substance abuse services available to prostitutes and vulnerable women adequate right now?

[Chief Rick Hanson]

I would have to say no. There hasn't been a comprehensive, integrated approach to address this issue like we have with so many other issues that used to be deemed to be criminal issues. Now with the focus on prostitution, I think it's the time to start to coordinate those services in a way that they act in the best interest of the sex worker. Because I can tell you that in my personal experience, from our officers dealing with young girls, young ladies, who become addicted to drugs for the sole purpose of then being manipulated into prostitution, issues of mental illness that are undiagnosed, and again there's an issue around self-medication, it will take a far more coordinated, collaborative approach to address the issue. The fact that we finally have this on the national agenda is going to be able to provide an opportunity to effectively address this, just as Mr. Bota said. I was fascinated by Mr. Bota's comments.

That's what it takes. As with anything else, it requires a made-in-Canada solution, and I think what Bill C-36 does is provide a made-in-Canada solution that may be different from elsewhere, but provides those collaborative approaches that have proven so successful in many jurisdictions in combatting homelessness, which is drug addiction and mental illness.... There is even the fact that there are criminals in our prisons and jails who are undiagnosed as mentally ill and addicted. We're punishing them because they support themselves through crime, but we're ignoring the real, foundational issues.

I look at this as being finally an opportunity to put what is a serious issue on the national agenda and to actually put the resources and efforts into addressing this instead of little band-aids, which is all I've seen in 39 and a half years of policing.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Hansen.

My third question is for Ms. Diamond.

In your view, what types of programs and services are needed to help sex workers who want to leave the profession?

[Casandra Diamond]

Thank you.

Some things that would be most beneficial would be the creation of other actual viable options like furthering their education, job skills, and job opportunities, as well as better housing options and opportunities, just learning a life other than normalized abuse, having cultural opportunities, experiencing their communities in different ways where they get to be active as healthy, contributing members who can reap the benefits of being within the community. That has economic options as well. Welfare just doesn't pay the bills. There's nothing, at the end of the day, for anybody who does need to be on OW, or Ontario Works, programs. There's just not enough there, and they need something more than to resort to selling their bodies for paying the rent at the end of the month.

As Ms. Emily Symons mentioned, these are last-minute choices here. I have to pay my rent or I'll be out at the end of the month; my kids need $100 for a school program, so I'll just go out and pull one trick. That one trick, they might not come home from, sir. That might be the last trick they pull, so we need to have options other than being born with a body that can be purchased by somebody who's willing to purchase it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much, Mr. Jacob. Thank you for those questions and answers.

Our final questioner of this panel is Mr. Dechert.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to our witnesses.

Chief Hanson, I want to start with you. Chief Jennifer Evans of the Peel Regional Police, which polices in the City of Mississauga, where I'm from, and her officers have told me that there is associated crime that goes with prostitution in the places where it's carried on. Whether it's indoors or outdoors there is often general assault both on the prostitutes, obviously, and sometimes on their clients and other third parties who might happen to be in the vicinity. When other criminal elements know there are men walking around with large amounts of cash in their pockets, they'll be drawn to that area. They may get assaulted and robbed, and other innocent bystanders who just happen to be there at the same time may also get mugged. There is also drug trafficking that goes hand in hand with this because sometimes the people who are looking for the sexual services are also looking for drugs, and the providers of drugs know there is a market there.

Have you seen the same thing in your jurisdiction in Calgary? Can you talk about that?

[Chief Rick Hanson]

Just as there's unreported crime when it's associated with the supplier of the product, which we have to work more diligently to address, many of the offenders that target prostitutes are vicious, violent men. At the time they are victimizing prostitutes; at another time, it could be some other equally innocent person. Not having access to the reports of those people and who they are is something, if we don't know, we can't investigate. We have to fix that.

As far as the supply side goes, for those who are soliciting the service, yes, absolutely, there are multiple cases where they are set up, robbed, beaten, extorted, and they are reluctant to report for the same reasons, for the embarrassment that is associated with it. They think the police aren't going to react to it. Frequently these issues are associated with organized crime groups because this is a lucrative market—hugely lucrative. Secondly, sometimes they are just local thugs who recognize that it's an opportunity to take advantage of a particular situation.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

So you would agree there are other harms to our communities where these activities are carried on?

[Chief Rick Hanson]

Absolutely.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Okay.

I want to ask a question to Ms. Symons. In your ideal world, as I understand it, you have total decriminalization so there is no stigma attached to the provision of sexual services, the people can choose willingly to do it or not to do it. In that ideal world, if we create that ideal world in Canada, do you think the number of people involved in the sex trade and the demand for sexual services will go up, down, or remain the same?

[Emily Symons]

I believe it will remain the same. There are a couple of reasons I believe that. One is talking with my colleagues in New Zealand and learning that both the purchase and the sale of sexual services are roughly the same. I know there is this understanding that if we decriminalize it, the sex industry is going to flourish. But I want to point out that strip clubs are currently legal in Canada, and we don't see women rushing out all the time to work as erotic dancers, and we don't see men rushing out all the time to purchase lap dances. So my expectation is that it will remain the same.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Somehow the market forces are generating the exact demand and the exact supply? I studied economics many years ago, and it's very uncommon that you'll have a situation where there is some criminal sanction or prohibition on a business, yet the demand exactly equals the supply. But that seems to be your view of what would happen here in Canada.

Mr. Bota says, if I understand correctly, that in Germany when they went to a decriminalized situation, the number of sex workers actually went up and the number of sex transactions went up, and the amount of human trafficking went up. Why do you think that wouldn't happen in Canada?

[Emily Symons]

I think that wouldn't happen because I believe that exploitation is taking place precisely because it is criminalized. When you push the industry underground and when sex workers aren't able to call the police, when sex workers don't have access to labour standards, and when they face the stigma when they come out to report exploitation, I believe that is why the exploitation is taking place.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Casandra, do you have a comment?

[Casandra Diamond]

We can't actually push the prostitution industry underground. We can push it out of the way so we can't see it; that's more so the case.

The prostitution reform bill's purpose was not intended to equate with the promotion of prostitution as an acceptable career option, and it's not. That's why I think we see more and more trafficked persons when we allow or legalize prostitution. We in Canada have licensed body-rub houses. We have a small scale example of what that would look like. These licensed body-rub houses are operated, again, by organized crime groups, where their rules apply, not the laws of Canada.

The other thing that New Zealand has is the brothel operation certificate system. We have the same thing in place. We apply to the licensing commission to get these licences. We have to qualify for them, and clearly, it's a “not working” system, where women are not protected and where they are pushed outside the view of society and cannot go for help in an indoor situation. It is certainly not the solution for any future.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much. Thank you for those questions and those answers.

I want to thank our panellists for being here today as witnesses. It was an excellent discussion on this particular bill and its effects.

Just so you know, we will be continuing to review this today and tomorrow and on Thursday, and all meetings will be televised so that you can tune in to see how we're doing.

With that, we will adjourn until the next meeting after lunch.