Justice Committee on July 8th, 2014

[Emily Symons]

Sure, I would say that our ideals are neither.

I'm sorry, can you just repeat the last part? The question was ideally would it be eradicated or....

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

I'll try to phrase it differently. Is it more a case of stopping the activity? Or is it just about reducing the stigma?

[Emily Symons]

I think that you never, ever help someone by taking away an option, and I would never want to take away the option of sex work from someone. But I would want to create more options so that everyone can make the decision whether they want to do sex work or they don't want to do sex work, and so that people who do sex work can do it safely. I have no desire to see the sex industry flourish, and I have no desire to see it eradicated. I wish for people to be able to make their own choices.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much for those questions and answers.

Our next questioner, from the New Democrat Party, is Madam Péclet.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you kindly, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to thank the witnesses for their exceptional presentations. They were quite enlightening.

My first question is for the POWER and Stella, l'amie de Maimie representatives.

You said that local police had already adopted an approach whereby the client was considered to be committing the criminal activity and that the police had been operating that way for several years. Robyn said the approach had not necessarily led to less violence or less prostitution.

I'd like you to tell us what the relationship between sex workers and the police has been like since that approach was adopted.

[Robyn Maynard]

Thanks for asking that question.

To begin, I'll just point to the research I had pointed out that just was done with the sex workers in the Downtown Eastside, regarding the Vancouver police's decision to focus more on the clients.

They did note there was a slightly improved relationship between the sex workers and the police, which is something that was a positive, but the major problem that continued was that sex workers still didn't have enough trust in police. When police were running by, they would be trying to evade them because this was moving their business, because they would end up in much more isolated areas, and would still end up....

If a sex worker gets into a car with a client and is negotiating with him, the police will still intercept at that moment. So at the same time, again, when the client-sex worker interaction is criminalized, it still creates an adversarial relationship. It is a step that we can see is actually being taken away now by this new law project, for sex workers to not be arrested, and now it seems as if they will be again, with full impunity and with all the effects of harm and danger that will result from that.

That's just it. Because of the effects of criminalizing sex workers' clients on the street, it still causes a displacement, and displacement has been found time and time again to be, really, one of the major causes of violence that we see enacted on sex workers in the street.

[Emily Symons]

Unfortunately, the relationship between the police and street-based sex workers is still extremely negative since they started arresting clients rather than sex workers. What has been told to us by sex workers is that even though the police aren't laying charges, they are still harassing them. They are approaching them on the street. “What are you doing here? Get off the street.” They're wanting to search them, wanting to lay drug charges, or going after them for loitering, so it's actually still extremely negative.

There are a small number of officers in Ottawa who do have positive relationships with street-based sex workers, but it's a smaller number.

[Robyn Maynard]

If I could just add to that, we see the same. As much as people are glad to not have to fear going to prison, the police are still pushing people away and giving them tickets, and all this other kind of thing, the harassment, because they are really trying to close the red light district in Montreal that exists. They are still using a variety of other means including other drug charges and things like that, which affect sex workers' lives negatively.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Since the police began using that approach, have you seen clients being arrested? Have they been convicted? How has the police implemented the new approach? How has it been enforced at the street level? Has it resulted in arrests and convictions?

[Robyn Maynard]

This isn't clear. The criminalization of clients isn't something that's new. The criminalization of clients came in with the communication law in 1985, so this criminalization of clients isn't something that was a new policy. It was just to focus less on the sex workers for communication.

There has always been an imbalance. There are many fewer clients who are arrested than sex workers, and it has always been that way. But you do see the police patrolling the strolls, which is still displacing people because clients are afraid to go there when the police are patrolling. It's things like this. So as much as the convictions...because it has always been unbalanced and more focused towards sex workers, even if it's not for sex work charges....

[Emily Symons]

From what we know in Ottawa, overall the number of clients approaching sex workers on the streets has not gone down. I know this anecdotally. I don't have any research to back it up. But clients are displaced for periods of time while they are conducting what they call the street sweep. For that period of time they may move to another location, but it certainly doesn't change it long term.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

You still have three minutes.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

My second question would be for Mr. Hanson, because at the end of your testimony you clearly said prostitutes will not have a criminal record under this new law. But according to the Canadian law, for criminal records, it clearly states to get a suspension of your criminal record, it takes five years. I'm going to cite it in French, sorry:

It clearly says everyone is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

I was wondering. I clearly know in Quebec when you get arrested you have to go to the police station and give your prints. I'm sorry, I'm not from Alberta so I don't know how it works.

So you have never arrested a prostitute? Can you say no prostitutes have ever had a criminal record and had to give their prints? Because I know for a fact that it is not true that they won't. If they get arrested and get recognized as guilty of an offence, they will end up with a criminal record.

[Chief Rick Hanson]

This is an excellent opportunity to clarify this whole issue.

The Identification of Criminals Act under the Criminal Code is very specific. If you're charged with an indictable offence, you will be fingerprinted and you will be photographed, full stop. If it's a dual procedure, dual procedure says that you may be convicted of an indictable offence for up to two years, five years, 10 years, or summary conviction. For dual procedure offences, you are fingerprinted and photographed. When it goes to court, a determination is made by the crown whether they want to proceed by indictment or summary conviction. Regardless, your fingerprints and photographs have already been taken.

There's a reason for this. If we arrest somebody today in Calgary and they're in Montreal, and somebody by the name of Rick Hanson gets arrested in Calgary, and then somebody by the name of Rick Hanson gets arrested in Montreal, how do you know it's the same Rick Hanson? Because I can tell you there are lots of them.

The third option is pure summary conviction offences. In other words, an offence punishable by six months or less, or a fine, does not fall under the Identification of Criminals Act. You do not fingerprint. You do not photograph. So you may have a conviction registered, but you have no record, because how do you identify that person without fingerprints and photographs? How do you know you're charging the same person? Well, you don't.

What you're talking about is frequently dual procedure offences, where the crown chooses to proceed by summary conviction, but it's still fingerprints and—

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

But the decision is the judge's, so at the end—

[Chief Rick Hanson]

No, the decision to proceed is by the—

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

—if they're recognized as guilty of an offence, then they will be.

[Chief Rick Hanson]

—crown prosecutor. The law is the same right across Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

That's your time, Madam. Thank you for those questions.

Thank you for those answers.

Our next questioner, from the Conservative Party, is Mr. Wilks.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for being here today.

I am going to continue along that same line because there seems to be some confusion. So, under the summary convictions act, it states that a conviction of six months or less, and a fine of up to a certain amount, does not require fingerprints or photographs. Correct? That also follows suit with the Identification of Criminals Act, under section 4 of that act. Correct?

[Chief Rick Hanson]

Correct.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

So under the new act that we are proposing, it will be a strict summary conviction offence for those who are caught communicating in a public place.

I'm curious to ask you, from the perspective of that new offence under this Bill C-36, a question that is twofold. One is that as the police are normally the first point of contact in a lot of instances under this type of investigation, I want you to take me through the discretionary powers of a police officer when it comes to this type of an offence. What they try to do at all costs, in my opinion, is rather than sending the sex worker to jail, they truly want to give this person help. So I want to hear from you about what the discretionary powers of the police officer are.

The second part of that is, because it's summary conviction and there are no fingerprints and no photograph, does that give power to the police to use that discretionary power?

[Chief Rick Hanson]

It totally does. Let's talk about issues that relate to so-called police harassment. Let's talk about when strolls are established in your neighbourhood, on your street, in front of where you live, your apartment building, in front of where you work, and what authorities the police have to deal with that.

If it's a pure legalization and there is no Criminal Code or no offence there, then the issues around enhanced vehicle traffic, johns approaching regular women on the street trying to use the sidewalks, and needles, condoms, and those types of things, are a source of grave community concern. Frankly, the community does not accept the police throwing their hands up in the air saying, “Geez, we can't do anything about it,” when it's your 16-year-old daughter who perhaps has been solicited, or things like that are happening.

I was at a police commission meeting a few years ago where this was indeed happening in the community, and the community collected a jar full of condoms and needles and such, brought it up, put it on the desk of the chairman of the police commission, and said, “You tell us it's not a social problem. Tell us what you're going to do about it.”

By having some provisions under the Criminal Code that allow us to take some steps, and by making it minimal provisions under the Criminal Code, i.e., summary conviction offences, it allows us to take some actions to remove the social disorder issues associated with that, and allows us to take some steps to address the victimization issue of those women, or men, because there is male prostitution, just to put this on the table. There's very little in the way of recognition or treatment of that.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you.

There has been some line of questioning that would suggest that the police target prostitutes from time to time. We've heard that from some of the groups. Could you explain to us the perspective of policing with regard to targeting as opposed to what the police may or may not be trying to do when they do a targeted area?

[Chief Rick Hanson]

There are a couple of things. One that I think I alluded to is that there are very few communities and very few locations where the community believes that a stroll is acceptable, where they believe that the issues associated with that cause other social issues....

Sorry.