Justice Committee on July 8th, 2014

[José Mendes Bota]

In my conclusions I am not criminalizing the prostitutes. On the contrary, I say that the prostitutes should be helped. They should be safe. There should be programs of rehabilitation, I mean, giving other opportunities. It's not only a matter of rehabilitation. The prostitutes are also my concern. I treat them as human beings. They must be treated as human beings.

I believe that the success in Sweden was more of a social success. The men were feeling.... First, they were convinced that they should not do it. Secondly, when they get the fines by mail, it's some kind of social penalization, because the whole family knows or their colleagues at work know. They don't want to be connected with that kind of activity.

I believe that after I have studied.... Look, I'm not saying the Swedish model is the most perfect. I'm also not saying that the models in the countries of legalization are all bad. No. In the Netherlands they are treating the prostitutes well in certain areas.

The problem is that there is not a national policy. It's the same problem in Switzerland. They don't have national data, because it belongs to the municipalities. It belongs to the cantons. They don't have statistics. That is one of the main problems. We need to better know the phenomenon, nationwide statistics that might be comparable. But in Sweden it is—

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

I get your point. Thank you. Time is of the essence.

You've opened the door for me, in a sense, and for the other members of the panel, in terms of one of the key successes of the Swedish model being the fact that it was in parallel, at the same time, to very strong social democratic measures.

My question is for Ms. Diamond.

I agree with you. A preamble is very important. It gives you the story that you're going to read.

I found there were things missing. It might be a start, but there are things missing. For me, that's where it gave me the impression of what the law from the government was all about. What was missing, and I don't know if you agree, is that we should also in the preamble address the questions of poverty, of housing conditions, health care needs, and other social measures. That would have given me the impression that we wanted to address everything.

At the same time, there's the fact that everybody on every side of the equation believes that at no time should the prostitute be criminalized in any consideration. The fact that it is.... With the fact that the Minister of Justice yesterday said to us that it's an intrinsic part of the bill to protect communities, I didn't sense, and I'm not quite sure and convinced, that we'll be able to amend it.

I had long discussions with members from the audience at the end of the day yesterday. They were saying, we're counting on you to amend it. We'll try very hard, but honestly, if it's part of the essence of the bill, I do not have much hope.

For you, is your support of Bill C-36 still there, even if we cannot amend it and we still criminalize prostitutes, sex workers, at the end of the day?

[Casandra Diamond]

Yes. I still have hope in Bill C-36.

This is a hard-working bill, in fact. We can't throw out 95% of its benefits for the 5%, but what we can do right now, what you guys can do, is really look at it, take it and turn it inside out and flip it around to figure it out. That's why I'm talking about equality, and I think we are talking about the same thing.

When we're talking about equality, we are addressing poverty. We are addressing the systematic issues and abuses or scenarios of life that keep women involved in sex for hire.

When we look at Bill C-36, for example—

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

But isn't the $20 million telling you that it is...? You seem to think it's a lot of money. But I listened to Chief Hanson, and I totally agree. We had Minister Swan yesterday telling us that when you consider what it represents...and it's way less. I think the Conservatives spent more on the commercial. They'll probably spend more on the commercial than on helping out. It's not only exit programs but also education, like—

[Casandra Diamond]

Twenty million dollars is better than no dollars.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

We all agree with that, but it's also sending a signal. If you are serious that you want...because I take the word of the minister, he wants to eradicate prostitution. It may be a very commendable objective, but with $20 million I tend to not take him too seriously.

[Casandra Diamond]

I hear you saying you'd like to put more money down, and I really appreciate that. That's exactly what we should be doing. You definitely should be putting more money towards it. But we need to change perceptions of society, huge public education campaigns.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Totally.

[Casandra Diamond]

We need equal police training. We need to have the laws of the land applied equally instead of having pockets of policing services that are already advocating a Nordic-model style of law in that they are not criminalizing the prostituted person or the trafficked person. They are, in effect, criminalizing the johns, which is very refreshing to me. In my 10 years I have never seen a man arrested for the purchase of sex—

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

I agree with you. I think we would like more money for the cops also to be able to—

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you both. Your time is way past. Thank you for those questions and answers.

Our next questioner from the Conservative Party is Mrs. Smith.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is going to be directed to Casandra. Casandra, yesterday we heard from Maggie's and some others that they never really met underage prostitutes. I know that, Casandra, you've worked very directly on the street with trafficked and prostituted people. Could you comment on that?

[Casandra Diamond]

Thank you, gratefully.

I've just finished a one-year contract with an agency that specifically handles trafficked persons versus prostituted. So it's just a strict trafficked-persons issue.

I can't walk into a group home in Canada where children—and these are 14-, 15-, 16-year-old children—are not being recruited out of there by low-level, small, organized gangs, and things like this. In fact, these girls are now using friending tactics to go in and get their friends to help them, to let them know they can make a little bit of extra money. “You can do this, do that. It's not so bad.”

So I'm seeing younger and younger persons entering the sex trade.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Also, could you comment on the amount of money? It seems that everybody we turn around to see is making money off the victims. What do you know about that?

[Casandra Diamond]

I certainly know that victims aren't making money. A lot of the women I'm working with are exiting the sex trade as broke as they entered it, except for, of course, the addictions they are coming out with, and the other issues they are facing socially.

In fact, they are not coming out with money. So the people who are making money are certainly organized groups of people who are facilitating large-scale brothels in the Toronto area. I'm from Toronto, so this is the area I'm speaking about. They are certainly making the money. Other than that, it's not the women.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you so much.

I would like to ask some questions now of Chief Hanson. I have to congratulate you and the Calgary Police Service. They are doing amazing work in terms of human trafficking and this whole issue. Your coming here today and your thoughtful comments mean a great deal on this committee.

I have a couple of questions. You were talking about the exit strategies and the need for more money, and that has come out very comprehensively. You've also talked about the overrepresentation of aboriginal women and the need to reduce the gender bias in our society. I thought that very compelling because 10 years ago we would not have heard that from police forces. Can you expand a little bit more clearly on what you've seen on the streets in terms of underage girls on the streets and also about the idea of how women are expected to be treated and accepted and this kind of involvement in the sex trade? Could you expand on what you were saying a little earlier more fully?

[Chief Rick Hanson]

Thank you.

A study done by one of the NFPs, not-for-profit agencies, in town deals with this issue. They found the average age for young girls entering prostitution is 13 years of age.

I want to talk a little bit.... It's ironic. I've been around, as I said, and I'm not bragging about it; trust me. I have almost 40 years in policing.

Up until about 15 years ago, we didn't do a very good job in regard to family violence and domestic violence, because we had this attitude, which goes back many years, that if a woman is in a situation where there's family violence, she chooses to be there. It's her choice. You know what? That wasn't the case then with family violence and domestic violence. It took us going a long way on the spectrum to acknowledge that it's a complicated issue that requires the application of the law on the abuser, where appropriate, but more importantly, it requires support systems to support the victim, where appropriate, and the victim and the family.

The discussion around this is very similar. From observing not only our own experiences in Calgary but also from reading studies, I believe strongly that, when you are out there and see the disproportionate representation of aboriginal women, when you see that there are addiction issues and issues of mental illness, for too long policing has focused on the symptoms, put them in jail, instead of focusing on the people there.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

For the first time in Canadian history, we are seeing the arrest of the perpetrators who buy sex. Do you think that is helpful in getting some control on this?

[Chief Rick Hanson]

That's a really good question.

Absolutely, because unfortunately it's a wink-wink, nudge-nudge situation. Young men are growing up to think that it's a right of passage to solicit a prostitute and do whatever you want to her because you're paying for it. It's wink-wink, nudge-nudge; it's really okay. If you get caught, well, you know what the consequences are.... None of them expect to get caught.

So it's changing attitudes.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

We heard one group yesterday say that they basically deal with people aged 18 years and over. I've worked personally with victims for a very long time, and I would question that. I just don't know how you feel about that, though.

[Chief Rick Hanson]

About which part?

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

About how old these people are that you see on the streets. Are they all adults? Are there some youth? What happens?

[Chief Rick Hanson]

Fortunately, we have some really good provincial statutes that allow us to intervene if they're under 18. But the reality is that if they're 18 years and one day, our hands are tied. So you recognize that you need some additional—

Just as in drug court today, a charge for drugs means you're starting on a road to recovery because you use the charge to leverage that for treatment. Then you can give people their lives back. We are saying that having the Criminal Code to support you as a tool to extract and then put into treatment programs is something that's going to benefit the individuals themselves, the victims.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Your last question, please....

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

My last question, very quickly, to both you and Casandra. Maybe I'll start with Casandra.

Casandra, did the johns ever ask you—do they ever ask the people they're having sex with how old they are?