Justice Committee on July 9th, 2014

[Gunilla Ekberg]

If I look at our experience in Sweden, first, it was incredibly important to us, when we created the Swedish approach and then implemented it, that what we did was based firmly on principles. In our case we looked at gender equality, international human rights, and anti-discrimination or non-discrimination policies. Those are inscribed, it being a different legal system in Sweden, in the travaux, and underline the legislation that we passed when it comes to criminalizing the buyers.

In this particular bill the government has outlined certain principles as to why they decided to go the way they decided. What is lacking is a general reference to international human rights and obligations under that, which include looking specifically at the discrimination of aboriginal peoples in Canada and other places.

My approach to this is that there should be references specifically to the CEDAW convention, to the general international instruments that say that prostitution is an affront to the dignity and human worth of the person, and I think Canada could take a step forward and also make a reference to the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. It's not binding, but it does state a commitment to specifically take into consideration the particular repression and discrimination that aboriginal people suffer in Canada, specifically women and girls. So yes, it should be included, definitely.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you.

While on the subject of international obligations, I expect you're probably aware that the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe has passed a resolution calling on countries, including Canada, to include certain things as they deal with prostitution. One of the things the Council of Europe has called on Canada to do is to make specific efforts with respect to research and data collection.

What you may not know is that the research budget within the Department of Justice has been cut because it doesn't align with the government's objectives, and there is nothing in this bill that talks about it. There is no reference to it in the $20-million allocation.

What is your opinion on that?

[Gunilla Ekberg]

Again, just as an aside, I am a Canadian citizen and I have lived in Canada for many years so I'm quite aware of the system.

I think if we want to take a comprehensive approach to the prevention and tackling of prostitution, it needs to include aspects of, for example, training of police, research, impact assessments of all provisions, not just the ones that we're discussing now, other policies, etc., any evaluation potentially of whatever will be in place at the end of this process.

Having worked close to those who make decisions in the government, I don't believe in Sweden as in Canada that it's about lacking money. I think it is about equal distribution of funds. There needs to be a decision made making this work a political priority, as we did in Sweden, where the government took a specific decision to integrate the work based on gender equality into the gender equality strategies that are a cross-party parliamentary strategy accepted by everyone.

In that there are, of course, the measures that also need—

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Ms. Ekberg, thank you very much. Thank you for those questions and answers.

Our next questioner is Mr. Dechert from the Conservative Party.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our guests.

Ms. Grant, I just want to join with my colleagues in expressing my wishes that your daughter comes home soon safe and well, and thank you for sharing your story with us.

I want to start with Mr. Lambrinos. First of all, thank you for the kind offer for the site tour later today. I regret that I will not be able to join you this evening.

Earlier you introduced me to some of your members, I believe the owners of some of those clubs that you have invited us to view today, the gentlemen sitting here in the room. Do you want to introduce them to the committee?

[Tim Lambrinos]

Correct. Mr. Doug Pettit is from the NuDen. Earl Bentivoglio is from the Barefax, and Remi is a manager at the Barefax in Ottawa downtown.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Very good. Welcome to you all.

As I understand it, Mr. Lambrinos, the concern of the Adult Entertainment Industry Association is the definition of sexual services in Bill C-36. You're concerned that the types of activities that go on in your members' clubs might fall under that definition. Is that correct? Is that your concern?

[Tim Lambrinos]

That's not the concern.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Okay. Is that a concern?

[Tim Lambrinos]

No. What it is, and I appreciate Madame Boivin asking the question earlier. These types of activities are prohibited in adult entertainment clubs. They do not occur, and in terms of—

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

So nothing that you or the average Canadian would understand as being a sexual service goes on in any of the clubs that any of your members operate?

[Tim Lambrinos]

I'm not saying that it never happened. I'm not saying that, sir, at all, but it is a prohibited activity. It happens no more or no less than anywhere else.

What the definition was created for was defined to ensure there was no ambiguity in place. I'll tell you, Mr. Dechert, that part of the reason is not only the education that we have, not only the rapport that we have, but it's the physical setup within the area that if you were able to attend you could see that the private dance area is an open access area. It's not behind a closed door like it would be in a massage parlour.

Mr. Dechert, just one thing, the problem is that in the massage parlours where they advertise with all these acronyms, they are behind locked doors. They are behind.... There are very limited language capabilities, etc.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

And none of those massage parlours belong to your association, correct? None of those massage parlours are members of your association?

[Tim Lambrinos]

No, they are not.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

You don't represent them?

[Tim Lambrinos]

No, we do not, sir.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

I understand. So you're not really concerned that Bill C-36 will affect your members. You said earlier that the laws that were struck down under Bedford didn't affect you in any way.

[Tim Lambrinos]

No, and I point out, Mr. Dechert, that there had not been a single licensed adult entertainment club charged in the last five years with any of the struck-down laws, so we know we're doing a good job.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

So under the old law, under the new law, there really isn't a problem. Your owners should be able to carry on business in the normal course as they do today.

[Tim Lambrinos]

However, I wanted to point out.... You're right with the advertising because we need to be proactive about things too.

These places that actively engage in sex acts—even the chief of York will affirm to this—that are advertising for it with their acronyms are creating a negative impact on our performers, on our entertainers as well, because they realize customers can go over there and get more bang for their buck, but meanwhile a lap dance is not intercourse. Then there's pressure put on, so they have been a nuisance to our industry.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

So your concern is that the massage parlours and the advertising they do infringes on the legitimate business that your members are carrying on?

[Tim Lambrinos]

Correct. These types of places, Mr. Dechert, cannot live by word of mouth advertising alone, and it's because they have been getting away with this ambiguity.

My point was that there are good intentions perhaps. However, you don't even define what the word sexual activity is, and there are no tools in place for the chief to implement. They have all these things now as many members pointed out. There are pages upon pages of—

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Those are all for massage parlours, are they? None of your clients...?

[Tim Lambrinos]

No, they do not advertise in here.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Okay. All right.