Okay. That's fair.
Evidence of meeting #40 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prostitution.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #40 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prostitution.
A video is available from Parliament.
Co-founder, Northern Women's Connection
As we were saying, the stigma gets removed. Yes, stigma kills. I've seen the faces of death, as I said, several times, and I see it coming with the women in the next generation. They're not taking their medication as they should be. They're not doing the things they could be doing to live a healthy lifestyle. It's due to stigma: I don't want to take those pills. I don't want to take anti-depressants. I don't want to go see a counsellor for trauma. It's because of the stigma, correct? However, if we start with this society change, changing the attitude at an upper level, the federal government, there will be a domino effect. It'll eventually get down to the people, the average middle-class people, who could be a big part of this in terms of the stigma.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace
Thank you very much for that answer and that question.
Our next questioner, from the Conservative Party, is Mrs. Smith.
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Thank you, Mr. Wallace.
First of all, I want to put the focus on all of you. That's what's important.
Jeanne and Linda, it's so good to meet you; we've dialogued for so long. It's amazing what you've done over so many years.
Trisha, you're my hero. You always have been. You've been through so much and you've helped so many people. You're a very brave woman.
Larissa and Heather, I say the same to you. I don't know how you got the money to get here today. I have to find out, because you were so worried that you didn't have the money to get here. I have to thank you for what you're doing.
Honestly, for the first time we have a bill in Canada that actually criminalizes the buying of sex. That is the first thing that's ever happened in Canada. The second thing is what Heather referred to, the changing of the paradigm. When I came to Parliament in 2004, they were telling me that there was no human trafficking, that there was no such thing, and that, hey, there were no underage people.
The ICE unit has been listening to this today. My son was in the ICE unit. They kept saying to keep talking about the kids, because the torturers get the most money with the kids.
The whole world is listening today. In Parliament, the whole world saw the NDP and the Liberals vote against Bill C-36, so they really believe what they're saying. What we're trying to do, though, is start a new paradigm in Canada where your voices are heard, where something is done. I'd like you to comment.
Perhaps I'll start with you, Larissa, because I've had a lot of dialogue with you and Heather. Can you tell me, in terms of criminalizing johns and the buying of sex, will that help in the safety of women, first of all?
Co-founder, Northern Women's Connection
First of all, to go on from what Heather said, it removes the stigma from the women. I think this kind of touches on both of your questions. When I was first able to exit the sex trade, one of my biggest barriers to being able to be reintegrated into society and move out of the sex trade and not continually go back to it was people's perception of me. I understood that society did not want me around and didn't want me as a neighbour, as a friend, as a co-worker, as a colleague, as an employee. I was not welcome in everyday society.
Co-founder, Northern Women's Connection
That's what this can do: it can flip that.
As soon as we start recognizing women as being exploited, and not having it be situational and circumstantial and out of their control due to social barriers and structural issues—
Co-founder, Northern Women's Connection
—it will make it safer for them to come out to share their stories.
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Yes.
The chair is going to cut me off pretty soon, Larissa, so if you'll forgive me, I'll go to Trisha now, okay?
Trisha, I'm going to ask you a different question. I hear that the johns are good guys. I hear that they don't get you in trouble.
I know that you finally got your pardon, and I'm so happy about that. But the fact of the matter is...tell me about those nice johns.
Community Engagement Coordinator, Exploited Voices Now Educating
I'll just quickly tell a story. I had done a date, and I was in a car. I thought he was reaching underneath his seat to get a wallet to pay me. I kind of remember the crowbar as it came through the air and cracked me in the chest, but I don't specifically recall it. I don't remember being thrown out of the car. I don't remember the man who picked me up off the ground and phoned 911 to come and get me. So he was a really great john—up until the point he pulled the crowbar out.
You never, ever know when that crowbar will happen. That's why we need to criminalize all johns, because there's no way of knowing who's violent and who's not.
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Thank you, Trisha. Thank you for bravely coming today.
Jeanne and Linda, I've been told time and time again, and I hear this noise...and I keep thinking that some time I'd like to follow the money with all of the organizations, with everybody wanting to protect the sex workers.
Now having said this, when you talked about torture, you made such a great point. Thank you for bringing that to this committee.
But when you saw the victims of torture, were they all adults?
As an Individual
They weren't adults when the torture started, but they were adults when we met them.
Conservative
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Yes, that's what I thought from our dialogue back and forth over the months.
You two are angels. That is what you are. I don't know what those people would have done without you. Thank you so much for what you've done and continue to do.
I have to ask you also, out of the percentage of women who were tortured, what percentage in your mind—over the 20-some years that you've been in this—were young sex workers, or young people who were trafficked essentially?
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Finally we're getting the stories out, aren't we?
So why is Bill C-36 good? It's because it criminalizes the buyers of sex. There is the human right to be safe in this country. You brought up that wonderful thing that you give to the kids...you know, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Everyone has a right to be safe in this country and that underlines this whole thing.
We've done an extensive consultation of Canadians, and without a doubt they are on the side of Bill C-36. What do you think when you come to Parliament and you hear this confusion and the muddlement? What do you think? What can we do to clear that confusion up so that we have all parliamentarians on side? This is not a perfect bill. No bill in its infancy is a perfect bill. I'm supporting it because I think it's a good start, not because I'm on the side of the government. I think it's a very good bill, and it does change the paradigms.
But how do we get this message clear about how important this is for the protection of women and children in this country? If December 19 comes along and we don't pass this bill, everything is legalized.
How do you feel about that?
As an Individual
I'd be sick about it. I think we have to remember that the majority, and it goes from 90% to 97% of the women who are prostituted, endure violence. We have to always remember to think of the majority, not the 3% to 10% who say it's work.
As far as torture is concerned, if women knew that there was a law naming torture—not assault, because assault minimizes torture—they would start naming their torturer more. They are not comfortable naming torture in this country because of the wording of it.
Laws change thinking and change language. It changes our behaviour with police, teachers, and health workers. I am a care coordinator, and I listened to Lynn's story as a care coordinator. I taught the whole health care team to treat her as a torture survivor instead of as an angry woman. That's what we have to do is to start naming the reality of the violence in prostitution.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace
Thank you very much for those questions and answers.
Our next questioner, from the Liberal Party, is Mr. Casey.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Paterson, first of all, I want to thank you for focusing on the wording contained in subsection 213(1.1), which talks about places where children ought reasonably to be present.
I want to read to you what the minister said to us on Monday about this, and then I'm going to invite you to comment and talk to us a little further about it.
He said the following to us on Monday:
...Bill C-36 would also criminalize communicating for the purposes of selling sexual services, but only in public places where children can reasonably be expected to be present. Mr. Chair, this is an approach we have borrowed from other sections of the Criminal Code, mainly those that protect children. There is a legal definition or interpretation already in place in the Criminal Code that deals with places where children can reasonably be expected to be present.
Mr. Paterson, as you know, what the minister didn't say is that those sections of the code that he relies on for comfort and certainty are new. They were enacted by this government and have never been challenged.
How much comfort do you take in the constitutionality of section 213, given that scenario?