Evidence of meeting #40 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prostitution.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Linda MacDonald  As an Individual
Jeanne Sarson  As an Individual
Trisha Baptie  Community Engagement Coordinator, Exploited Voices Now Educating
Heather Dukes  Co-founder, Northern Women's Connection
Larissa Crack  Co-founder, Northern Women's Connection
Josh Paterson  Executive Director, British Columbia Civil Liberties Association
Laura Dilley  Executive Director, PACE Society
Sheri Kiselbach  Coordinator, Violence Prevention, PACE Society

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

I will call this meeting to order.

We are the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, and this is meeting number 40 and we are televised. Per the order of reference of Monday, June 16, 2014, we are dealing with Bill C-36, An Act to amend the Criminal Code in response to the Supreme Court of Canada decision in Attorney General of Canada v. Bedford and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.

We will have a couple of announcements before we get to our witnesses. I'm going to make one announcement, and then Madam Boivin has a question for the committee.

The Department of Justice has sent out the summation, whatever you want to call it, of the note on the summary conviction issue. Everyone has it, or you should have it anyway. I just need to know whether you need us to add some time on Tuesday for the officials to talk about this particular issue. Our analysts have looked at the submission from the justice department and are in 100% agreement, but if you need the officials to come here for that, I need to add it to the agenda. If not, we'll just assume that we are satisfied with the response.

Madam Boivin, on that issue.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

They don't need to appear before the committee. We know that both groups agree with us in that someone who is found guilty of the proposed offence would receive a criminal record in connection with that decision. That is exactly what we think too. The confusion has more to do with the fingerprinting.

On our end, that settles the debate on this issue. We don't need officials to come and explain it.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Is everyone okay then?

July 9th, 2014 / 3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

No, I have not seen the document to which she refers.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

It was sent to everyone by e-mail.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

They sent it this morning.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

It went to my assistant who then sent it to me.

I'll come back to it tomorrow. I just need to know whether to put it on the agenda or not.

If you could let me know, Mr. Casey, if you want them on the agenda for next week, we'll make sure that happens.

I think there's another item.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Exactly, Mr. Chair.

I have a motion to read to the committee: It is as follows:

That the Chair ask the Minister of Justice to table the Ipsos Reid survey on prostitution before Tuesday, July 15, 2014.

We asked the minister about the scientific survey commissioned by the Department of Justice. The committee has the authority to request that all documents be tabled. Don't laugh, Mr. Chair!

Since we'll be doing our clause-by-clause study next Tuesday, I am eager to see the survey results. It's a bit frustrating to have to wait until the end of July just because the department wants to use all of the time at its disposal to table the document. It could table it much sooner.

It seems logical to me that the committee would want to have the survey results tabled. I'm not asking for the results with respect to pot, just the ones pertaining to prostitution. That's all I'm looking for.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

You're asking me to ask the minister to table it prior—

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Yes, before Tuesday so we can read it.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

The motion is:

That the Chair ask the Minister of Justice to table the Ipsos Reid survey on prostitution before Tuesday, July 15, 2014.

Mr. Dechert.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Mr. Chair, the minister was clear. The survey will be released in accordance with Treasury Board guidelines.

We oppose the motion.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Mr. Casey.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

I support the motion, and not only will I not be offended but I will be very well pleased if the minister responds to the chair more positively than he did to me.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Madam Boivin.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

I would urge my colleagues from the Conservative Party.... I understand that the minister said something, but I think that you all have your own voice on the committee. I don't think it's untoward to have a piece of information that could guide us, since how Canadians think is often an argument that is used. There is nothing wrong with the committee having as much information as possible.

I really don't get why members of the committee, who are all of equal voice—not when we add them, but anyway—won't do something that would be very useful for the committee.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

There is a motion on the table for me to request that the survey be delivered to the committee prior to Tuesday.

(Motion negatived)

Thank you, Madam Boivin.

Witnesses, sorry for that slight delay. We'll make sure we make it up to you.

We're here for our final panel of the day.

As individuals, we have Jeanne Sarson, and Linda MacDonald. From Exploited Voices Now Educating, we have Trisha Baptie; and from the Northern Women's Connection, we have Larissa Crack and Heather Dukes.

By video conference, we have two groups. The British Columbia Civil Liberties Association is being represented by Josh Paterson; and PACE Society, by Sheri Kiselbach and Laura Dilley.

We will hear from our witnesses in that order.

Are you working separately or together?

3:35 p.m.

Linda MacDonald As an Individual

We're working together, but I'm starting.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Okay, you can start, then.

3:40 p.m.

As an Individual

Linda MacDonald

Thank you.

We are nurses from Nova Scotia. We have 21 years of grassroots experience. We're human rights defenders. We're also members of the Canadian Federation of University Women, which is an NGO of approximately 8,000 women across Canada, and they support us in what we're speaking about today.

We'd like to say that Bill C-36 is historic/“herstoric”. It's transformative in that it's socially, legally, and relationally a new way of looking at prostituted persons in that they are persons, not a nuisance, and that the demand is criminalized.

Our goal here today is to expose a population of women we have been working with and supporting for 21 years who are invisible to this country. They are women who have endured grave brutality. They are involved in forced prostitution, which means no choice. They were forced into human trafficking. And what we're focusing mainly on today is the non-state torture that they endured.

Non-state torture is an Amnesty International term. The UN definition of non-state torture is severe pain and suffering; it's purposeful, it's discriminatory—in this case, gender discrimination—and it's intentional. The intentionality, indeed, shatters the relationship with the self of the prostituted and tortured woman.

Who are the torturers, in our work? We found them to be parents, family, guardians, spouses, pimps, traffickers, and johns.

Where is this torture occurring? It's primarily in-house. It's definitely organized crime.

You're wondering about the type of torture. What we're going to do, as a way of explaining it, is read the story of a tortured woman. Her story was published in the work we do in the Canadian Centre for Victims of Torture.

Her name is Lynn. She is now dead. She said:

I was called bitch, slut, whore and ‘piece of meat’. Stripped naked and raped—‘broken in’—by three goons who, along with my husband, held me captive in a windowless room handcuffed to a radiator. Their laughter humiliated me as they tied me down spreadeagled for the men they sold my body to. Raped and tortured, their penises and semen suffocated me; I was choked or almost drowned when they held me underwater, threatening to electrocute me in the tub. Pliers were used to twist my nipples, I was whipped with the looped wires of clothes hangers, ropes, and electric cords; I was drugged, pulled around by my hair and forced to cut myself with razor blades for men’s sadistic pleasure. Guns threatened my life as they played Russian roulette with me. Starved, beaten with a baseball bat, kicked, and left cold and dirty, I suffered five pregnancies and violent beatings-forced abortions. They beat the soles of my feet and when I tried to rub the pain away they beat me more. My husband enjoyed sodomizing me with a Hermit 827 wine bottle, causing me to hemorrhage, and I saw my blood everywhere when I was ganged raped with a knife. Every time his torturing created terror in my eyes, he’d say, ‘Look at me bitch; I like to see the terror in your eyes’. I never stopped fearing I was going to die. I escaped or maybe they let me escape, thinking I’d die a Jane Doe on that cold November night.

That was Lynn's story.

In Bill C-36, there's an expansion of weapons in what can be used as restraint. Lynn's example shows that handcuffs could be used as a restraint in her case.

The other way we can expand on what torture is, what the ordeals are of the women we have worked with, is in our brief as well. It's a questionnaire that we developed and that we send to women who are interested in filling it out. Bridget Perrier was one of these, and she was willing to have me disclose that today.

This is another woman in Canada. We have identified 48 different forms of torture: forced impregnation; smeared with urine, feces, or blood; placed in a freezer.... All these are listed. This one Canadian woman endured 47 of the 48 that we have listed.

She summed up her statement by saying that she was sold to hundreds of perpetrators for sex and stating that “the goal of torture is to control and or break the human spirit through any heinous means possible.”

I would like to say to you that from what you've heard and in my opinion, I cannot call torture “work”.

3:40 p.m.

Jeanne Sarson As an Individual

I will continue.

I will now expand on the continuum of the persons who are forcibly trafficked, prostituted, and tortured. What and who are the johns buying, renting, or procuring?

Our answer has come to be that some prefer to rent children, including infants, for their pleasure of inflicting sadistic, sexualized, non-state torture. They are demanding, buying, and renting the so-called “sexual services” of underage prostituted girls who were groomed to normalize and sexualize torture and be rented out by parental pimps. You have to remember that children are where the money is.

I now share Sara's story of her drawing on page 7 of the brief. You can see her sitting on the counter of her father's store with an endless line of johns waiting to buy and rent her, and her father saying, “Bring her back when you're done”. That's a statement of her commodification and objectification. She was two.

To illustrate her continuous harm from forced prostitution and trafficking, I move to when she was 12 years old. A john rented her; drove her to his boat; took her to sea; and raped, beat, and water tortured her by repeatedly caging her and dropping her in the cage into the sea. During the continuous harm of forced prostitution and trafficking we estimate Sara suffered at least 24,000 torture vaginal, anal, and oral rapes. This does not account for the bestiality and the object and weapon rapes. She escaped in her late-twenties. For Lynn, in the story that Linda just told, we estimated that maybe she suffered 8,000 torture rapes.

We recommend to the committee that it ask that section 269.1 of the Criminal Code of Canada, on torture, be amended so that everyone, including pimps and johns, is held to account if they commit acts of torture and that torture be listed in Bill C-36, under paragraph 753.1(2)(a), to go along with the sexual assault.

We also support Bill C-36 to make sure that it does not criminalize prostituted women and children. As for the $20 million in funding, it will be inadequate. Many people have said that.

I would like to close on a cheap and preventive strategy that promotes the social paradigm shifts that we're talking about and promotes the human rights of women and girls. This is an example of me teaching grade 7 classes on human rights and the fact that the teachers came because of their concern about the misogynistic jokes from the boys about prostitution and human trafficking.

I use the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which Canada very proudly spent much time promoting in New York after the war. It says that everyone should be equal. If you opened it, which I do in class—and all the children get a copy, you will see that in your brief—the children ask about torture porn and about snuff. The girls talk about prostitution, so I have to tell them the stories that Linda and I have known for 21 years.

If you look at the universal declaration—and we're talking about women's and girls' equality—article 5 says that no one should be subjected to torture. The children are shocked when I have to say that only some people have the right not to be subjected to torture. The only people that have that right are those who are tortured by state actors. That means representatives of the government, which means MPs, police, and military. If it's a john or a pimp, and you're a private citizen who is tortured by a john or a pimp, you cannot take them to court and claim that you were tortured. For the whole concept of human rights equality, totally for women and girls, I ask that you ensure that section 269.1 of the Criminal Code is amended and included in your bill.

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you for that presentation.

Our next presenter is from Exploited Voices Now Educating.

Ms. Baptie, the floor is yours.

3:45 p.m.

Trisha Baptie Community Engagement Coordinator, Exploited Voices Now Educating

Sorry, it's a little overwhelming in here.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Take your time, take your time.

3:45 p.m.

Community Engagement Coordinator, Exploited Voices Now Educating

Trisha Baptie

My name is Trisha Baptie, and I want to thank you for inviting me to be a part of this process. I would also like to acknowledge the Algonquin peoples, who are the traditional caretakers of the land on which we stand.

I am here today as a representative of an organization called EVE, former Exploited Voices Now Educating. We are a volunteer, non-governmental, non-profit organization comprising former sex industry women. Our mandate is to have prostitution recognized as a form of violence against women, driven by the demand for paid sex. We seek the abolition of paid sexual access to women's and children's bodies, and participate in political action, advocacy, and public education campaigning in order to pursue this goal.

EVE operates under a feminist model, acknowledging that prostitution is born out of sexism, classism, racism, poverty, and other forms of systemic oppression. Since EVE was established in 2008, members have worked alongside of a wide cross-section of groups—feminists, grassroots, academics, aboriginals, faith-based/community-based groups, and government officials—to advocate for the criminalization of the demand for paid sex, and the decriminalization of persons selling sex.

I am not only here because of my group's vested interest in this topic, but also because I have a 15-year history in prostitution. I was prostituted from the age of 13 to the age of 28. The last 10 of those years were in Vancouver's notorious Downtown Eastside, the Downtown Eastside where I made many of my dearest friends, some of whom I would lose to Robert Pickton.

I entered prostitution when I was in my first group home after I was signed over to government care. I didn't call it prostitution at the time. I had no cognition that what I was experiencing was prostitution. I knew it was some form of inequality, as I was forced into the situation by a lack of alternatives. But no one stood up for me, no one told me that what was being done to me was not okay, and especially no one stood up to the men and said to them that they were breaking the law.

I had no idea at 13 years old I would be trapped in that world for the next 15 years, working indoors and outdoors, working licensed and unlicensed, preferring the streets of Vancouver's Downtown Eastside to working for someone else and giving my money away. At no point in time did I consent to the abuse I suffered. Consent was not freely given. It was bypassed because johns had the money I needed to keep myself and my family alive. Like so many other women and girls who find themselves in that circumstance, the choice of prostitute was one made under severe constraint. It was a choice between whether my kids would go hungry, or not. To me at that time there was no choice at all.

Money does not equal consent. It temporarily alleviates a dire need, the need to feed children, the need to feed addictions, the need to pay rent. Whatever the reasons, we had to be out there. Men took advantage of that desperation for their own sexual gratification, and used money to appease their guilt.

When Bill C-36 was released, I was encouraged when I read the first section of the summary that dealt with this exact behaviour. As a former prostitute, I'm aware that not every man is violent, but the threat of violence was ubiquitous in the sex industry, as it was impossible to discern which johns would attempt to cause physical harm, and when they might choose to do so. I feel justified in using gender language in this when I discuss my experiences because in 15 years of prostitution I was never bought by a woman.

We were particularly encouraged that the preamble of the bill contained statements like concerns about the exploitation that is inherent in prostitution, and the risk of violence, as well as recognizing the social harm caused by the objectification of the human body and the commodification of sexual activity. These statements are consistent with our experiences in prostitution. These words acknowledge that prostitution is a system based on inequality.

I want to make it very clear that it was never the laws that beat and raped and killed me and my friends, it was men. It was never the location we were in that was unsafe, it was the men we were in that location with who made it unsafe. We are glad to see that this behaviour will no longer be tolerated.

Some people want to make prostitution safer, but I know, we know, that you can't tell whether someone is a violent john until he deals out the first blow. This is true of unfamiliar johns as well as regulars. The claim that a prolonged screening time with potential buyers will protect women from physical harm allows society to wash its hands of the responsibility to take care of the most vulnerable and marginalized. What we demand is not safer, but safe.

The ban on the purchase of sexual services is an integral part of a movement towards real safety for women in Canadian communities. This is how we truly keep prostitute women safe. We do not allow men to buy them.

This policy sets a new tone for Canadians in how men treat and regard women. Canada, in passing this legislation, will be setting a standard for how men treat women. It will create a new social fabric for our young people to stand on, one that clearly says women and our girls are not for sale.

If we stand in agreement with prostitution we reinforce male privilege. We would effectively be saying that we will always have a demographic of women who will be offered up for sale. That notion contradicts the statements in the preamble of this bill that correctly note that prostitution disproportionately impacts women and children, particularly women and children of colour.

We do have concerns about this bill. We believe that section 213, the communicating provision, is redundant, as the culpable party—the sex buyers—would already receive criminal sanction. If, in fact, the government wants to encourage those who engage in prostitution to report incidents of violence and to leave prostitution, as stated in the preamble, the sellers of sex should face no fear of criminalization at all. A criminal record is a barrier to exiting from prostitution as it limits the ability for people in the sex industry to gain employment elsewhere.

We also fear this provision could cause prostituted women to be unduly targeted by their community, reducing them again to the category of public nuisance rather than human being.

In regard to the $20 million, we recognize this is a great start towards combatting prostitution, but we are very aware of how much this is just a drop in the bucket. We need funds dedicated to helping women exit prostitution, help support women until they feel they are able to make the transition to leave, as well retraining of the police about how to implement the new prostitution laws. We also need funds to do public education so the public can understand the changes made to the laws and explain how Canada is on a new trajectory for ending this form of abuse.

We resist the notion that men should be allowed to have sex exclusively on their terms at all times. We need to uphold the idea that mutual desire, comfort, and safety are a requisite component of sexual encounters. Anything short of this reinforces rape culture. For when men pay for sex, it is all about them, and has nothing to do with the person inside the body they are abusing.

We anticipate this law will have a normative function. Rather than give men free rein to ask women if they are for sale, rebrand pimps as businessmen, and attract organized crime, we will send a message that we value the women in our country and will not tolerate this gender violence.

If we want to build strong, safe, happy, and vibrant communities, we must put an end to this form of abuse and injustice. We rally to change male behaviour rather than accept women's subjugation. This subjugation causes physical, emotional, and mental harm for individual women and women collectively. A safe community for one and all is one that does not have prostitution.