Justice Committee on July 10th, 2014

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

It's a good point you raise. We live right next door to the wealthiest country in the world, one of the largest countries in the world, certainly much larger than ours. Something like 80% or more of the Canadian population lives within 200 kilometres of the U.S. border.

I recently visited Montreal, and I saw there a museum exhibit at the Montreal city museum on the days during prohibition in the United States. Montreal had clubs that served alcohol. There was a large degree of gambling, and there was also a large degree of prostitution. People could go there....

I think this exhibit is still running today. They have a model of a speakeasy that you can see. They have a room that's designed to look like a room in a brothel. The time is the 1930s, I believe. They have a room in a police station. They tell the story of how Montreal was traumatized by this experience. Tens of thousands of Americans would come every weekend to drink, to gamble, and to use the brothels. The people of Montreal fought back against that. There were politicians and there were police officers who got involved to fight back.

We don't want to go back there, do we?

[Mélanie Sarroino]

Definitely not.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Okay.

I have no more time left, Mr. Chair?

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much. Thank you for those answers.

Our next questioner is from the New Democratic Party.

Monsieur Jacob.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for participating in our discussion this afternoon.

My first question is for Ms. Sarroino. All the other witnesses could of course also comment afterwards.

What struck me in your comments was the fact that you talked a lot about social support, a continuum of health care, housing and a holistic approach.

As you know, Sweden adopted a model where the buyer of services is criminalized. However, that legislative measure was accompanied by some extremely important social measures. Such a model cannot work if the authorities do not have the required resources to help those who need assistance.

Do you think it would be possible to eradicate prostitution in Nordic countries, such as Sweden, without similar social measures?

[Mélanie Sarroino]

No, obviously not.

I won't repeat everything that has been said. However, as long as poverty is not being fought and as long as health care and detoxification services are not being implemented, women will have no choice but to turn to prostitution to be able to feed themselves and their family. Moreover, they won't be able to see how they can leave that life behind if they want to, since no services will be available to them.

According to testimony I heard, it can take up to 15 attempts and several years to successfully leave prostitution. If services are not available or are not funded, women who want to leave will certainly not be encouraged to do so. In sum, I think this is of the utmost importance.

Basically, we first have to tackle all the problems that make women turn to prostitution.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Ms. Steacy, did you want to add anything?

[Lisa Steacy]

I will make a quick comment in English.

I think for too long prostitution has been what's there to catch women in the absence of a social safety net. If we start to address and work to get rid of prostitution, we will necessarily have to confront all the inequality, all the things that have been stripped away, all the things that are missing that funnel women into prostitution.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Steacy.

Would any of you like to bring up anything else?

[Natasha Potvin]

I just want to add....

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Would you like to add, Madam Potvin? Then, Ms. Quinn....

[Natasha Potvin]

Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Services are needed, but we still have to distinguish between an act among consenting adults and an act of abuse. People need to recognize that an act between two consenting adults is a different matter. However, better resources have to be provided for all those who want to move on to something else or want to remain in prostitution. At the very least, support and more assistance have to be provided. Even in the case of acts between consenting adults, people have to be given an opportunity to report assault, abuse or a violent act.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Monsieur Jacob, Ms. Quinn had her hand up.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Ms. Quinn, go ahead.

[Kate Quinn]

Thank you very much.

Yes, we absolutely must address the poverty issues that affect women more than men. We all know that, so I won't go into it. As a quick example, in Alberta a woman who had been experiencing significant mental health challenges turned to our welfare system. She was able to get $723. However, the rent is $700. So she had to continue to post her ads on backpage.com, an Internet buy-and-sell site, simply to meet her basic living needs. This is what has to stop.

I said a big priority of the money from the john school is for basic poverty relief. Whether it was food store certificates, paying for prescriptions for medicines, for children, or anything you can think of that you need every day, we have paid for it out of those funds. Also, we have created this beacon of hope—we have bursaries and endowments now established at two primary university and colleges. Our phone is ringing off the hook with women who want to access these bursaries so they can have the chance for a different life.

When we say we want to decrease the demand, we cannot just decrease the demand, which some people would argue will take away income. We must increase the resources. So it must be this threefold approach of decreasing the demand, heavy social investment, and public education at all levels.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Jacob. That's your time.

With the last few minutes, Monsieur Goguen....

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank everyone for testifying before us today.

We are clearly facing a fairly complex situation. All the responses will be taken into consideration. We have to find a solution that will improve the situation here, in Canada.

Ms. Sarroino, earlier, you talked about the broad range of services your organization provides. You piqued my interest when you talked about your advocacy service. Can you elaborate a bit on what that service consists of?

[Mélanie Sarroino]

As I explained, that's sort of what I am doing today by participating in the committee meeting. That's also related to the militants in our member centres who call their regional MPs to talk about prostitution and the fact that the demand needs to be eliminated. Every centre has militants who are often survivors and work on several issues of political significance. Our advocacy services also include compensation for victims of crime. In Quebec, we are working very hard to expand the list of crimes eligible for compensation. That's part of our work in advocacy. There are also many other aspects I could explain, but I don't want to take up too much time.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Okay, do you want to....?

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Okay.

Mrs. Gerrard, your services seem to be extremely effective to the point where you're keeping people out of the system. You have a waiting list. I'm wondering if you can give us a brief profile of the typical person who goes to you to be withdrawn from the system. I know each individual is different, but is there a typical person, and what state of health do you find them in and in what mental condition?

[Glendyne Gerrard]

I think perhaps you're wanting to ask the question of somebody else. We don't offer current exit service delivery, except one of our churches is involved in the city of Winnipeg. Are you referencing that?

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I'm sorry, right screen, wrong person.

I'll address that question to Mrs. Quinn. I don't know if I framed it properly. Did you understand what I was saying, Mrs. Quinn?

[Kate Quinn]

Yes, I do.

We again put a high priority on trauma recovery. We find that the women have experienced intergenerational trauma, which take a lot of time to heal if they're seeking to rebuild their lives. Some were abused as children, so there are layers and layers there. Then certainly they have experienced violence when they were being exploited through prostitution, whether it's been at massage and escort services, or on street or any other venue.

So again, women have been coming to us, asking us for healing. We are working with specialized counsellors who understand the depth of trauma. Again, we find that many have developed mental health challenges as a result of the indignities, the degradation, and the violence that's been perpetrated against them.

One of our advocacy points is for sufficient funding for long-term trauma recovery counselling that, in addition to professional therapeutic assistance, also involves peer support, as mentioned by others. It's really key that those with lived experience be central to the healing process and the whole journey of rebuilding one's life.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much for those questions and answers.

I want to thank our witnesses for joining us today. It has been very informative and added to the discussion of Bill C-36 in great detail.

This is our second-to-last meeting. We'll be taking a half-hour break, and then we will start our final meeting of witnesses on Bill C-36.

With that, we will adjourn.