Justice Committee on Feb. 25th, 2015

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

It doesn't discriminate.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

No, it does not.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for those questions and answers.

Our next questioner, from the Liberal Party, is Mr. McKay.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Congratulations on moving it.

You've basically taken a bill that had significant support across all party lines, I should think, and turned it into a study. Not only did it have great support across party lines, but it also had support from the Canadian Bar Association.

I guess I've been around here way too long. Some might say that's probably true. I can remember back to 1997 when Paul Szabo was championing this issue and there was a huge pickup from a whole variety of people. I think my colleague Kirsty Duncan has a number of bills that are related.

It's kind of a curious decision on your part to turn what I think would have been a winner bill into a study where the conclusions have probably already been drawn.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

That's a good question so I can help you out with that.

That decision obviously wasn't made in isolation, as I said. As I wrestled with what I saw to be the timeframe left—and let's be honest here; we're coming up to June and it's not likely the House is going to resume after that—I wanted to be a realist about the time I had. That was something I had to juggle on my own and determine whether or not I thought it was going to get through all the stages in the House and all the stages in the Senate.

As I said earlier, I just wasn't going to be prepared with a symbolic victory run to the end and to say, “Yay, we got it this far. We can feel relieved”. I was going to be satisfied with it passing in absolute terms, or I wanted to leverage up and find a different win.

I didn't make that decision in a vacuum. I didn't make that decision by myself. I spent a lot of time speaking with the key people who have been involved in this with me: folks at FASSY; Rod Snow and Heather McFadden with the Canadian Bar Association, who have been deeply invested in this for a long time; CanFASD; FASD Prevention; family members who had reached out to me; and local first nations experts who were right here in Ottawa within the week that I was trying to finalize the reality of this.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Still, it makes for a curious decision, because in the fall you withdrew the bill, or turned it into a study. But in the fall you had essentially a year left; we'll say to June of this year. You have broad party support. You could likely trade the bill up once you got through.... You'd actually be at least here, possibly here even earlier, and I'm pretty confident you would have had a lot of cooperation in getting it back on the floor of the House.

It's not as if the Liberals are giving you a lot of opposition in the Senate.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

I didn't think there were Liberals in the Senate.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

I would have thought, just doing the time calculation, that you had a real shot at royal assent. That would have settled the law and that would have been a big time win as opposed to a study. You don't want to turn down studies, but I wonder whether anything really new will come out of this sort of thing.

I appreciate that there are potential things you can get, but an amendment to the Criminal Code is a big deal.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

Absolutely. I don't disagree with you and I think I've said that all along.

First off, your assessment and my assessment are clearly different, not just in terms of the time but in terms of the value of the study. The results of this are no longer in my hands. They are in your hands, so whether this works out well or not has a whole lot to do with how hard and how diligently you work at this. I wish you all the best and I hope it does go well, and I hope there are great results out of this.

The community, I can tell you, is very excited. They don't see this as a loss at all. In fact, I can read you e-mails I received from them when we finally came to this conclusion and how excited the groups and organizations are about this broad study—

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

There are people in my riding named Bonnie Buxton and Brian Philcox—in fact, they are just around the corner from my constituency office—who I have known for years, and they are the national organization. I think I can say with some confidence that they are disappointed that this didn't end up in legislation, and it was a real shot. There are no sure wins in this business, but it was a real shot.

Does that mean therefore that, if a bill comes to the House, such as that of my colleague, Sean Casey, which is very similar to your bill, you will support that bill?

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

You touched on a few things, so I'll answer your last question first. If it actually gets anywhere, I'll support it.

Now you named two people, and not to minimize their opinion on this, but I have 200 people who are clearly supportive of this study and the work that you're about to undertake, so I urge you not to dwell on the past but to focus on the task at hand, which is to do a great study, provide those recommendations, and work for them.

We can second-guess decisions all day long, but here we are. It's well embraced by the community. As I said, I appreciate the NDP support in getting it here. I was really surprised that the Liberals voted against bringing it to a study, but here we are.

You have the possibility to do good work, and I urge you to do that.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

The issue, as I've articulated it, is that to trade a bill for a study is somewhat disappointing, because, as I said, I've been here for 17 years and this issue, frankly, has been studied to death. I'd be interested in actually knowing that the Canadian Bar Association decided that this should be studied. They wouldn't advocate for an amendment to the Criminal Code if, in fact, there wasn't some inconsistency in the application of sentencing principles across the country, and that would have been the core success of your bill, that a judge would have had specific direction from the Parliament of Canada that FAS is to be a mitigating factor in sentencing. Frankly, that would have been huge.

It's a pity to sort of walk away from that opportunity, especially in the context of a majority government.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

You have one minute left.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

I appreciate your opinion on it. I don't think I've seen anywhere, in any literature I have, any correspondence from any of the groups, the organizations, the families, or the professionals who have worked on this, any reference to this issue being studied to death. No one has ever characterized this issue as being studied to death.

I would invite you to ask every single group and organization that sits before you if they think the issue of FASD in this country has been studied to death. I'll guarantee that you're going to get an emphatic no.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

But if we ask the question: what would you rather have, a study or an amendment to the Criminal Code? That's the question.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

Sure, and I think the answer you're going to get from those groups is that if you're prepared to do good work and not just dwell in the past, they very much would invite this study if there are going to be concrete recommendations, if those recommendations are going to be taken seriously, but that starts first with the work that you do, sir, on this committee.

I guess if you are going to focus on a decision that was made to not actually ask relevant questions about FASD itself and learn about the topic, then we're going to hit an unfortunate roadblock, but if you're going to turn your mind to the topic of FASD and the needs of the people, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised that the work you can do will be tremendous for this committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for those questions and answers.

Our next questioner is Mr. Dechert from the Conservative Party.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

I want to thank my colleague Ryan Leef for bringing forward what I think is a very important study that this committee needs to do.

Following on the earlier discussion with Mr. McKay, I note for the record that Mr. McKay mentions he's been here 17 years. A number of those years, quite a few in fact, were as part of a majority Liberal government. I guess he could ask himself why the Liberals didn't move forward on this when they had the opportunity to do so, especially since he thinks it has been studied a lot.

From my perspective, Mr. Leef, although I've been aware for many years that there are people who suffer from fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, I had no idea the extent and the cost and the depth of the issue with respect to the people who suffer from this disorder. So I've already been enlightened quite a bit by that, and I thank you for that.

You probably are aware that in our last meeting the committee passed a motion to travel to Yukon to hear from some people there who are experts on this issue. I wonder if you could tell us whether you think that's a good idea and whether you think it would be a productive use of the committee's time in advancing our knowledge and understanding of this topic, and tell us what you think it would mean to the people that we would potentially be meeting in Yukon.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

Thanks for the question, and at the risk of sounding Yukon-centric, I think most members would always applaud travel into their ridings as there's a net benefit to that. The Yukon in my estimation is broadly recognized as a leader in FASD research. I talked a little earlier about stigma. The one advantage the Yukon has is I think we've pushed over that stigma barrier. We're prepared to talk about it publicly. In a larger sense than in other regions of the country, I think we're starting to brush away the shame, which allows us to get down to the issues at hand, have those hard discussions, and come up with the solutions.

The Yukon has a well-organized group with FASSY, Fetal Alcohol Syndrome Society Yukon. The government is engaged in some innovative strategies there from prevalent studies that are ongoing right now at the correctional centre on the options for independence, independent housing units that have been funded there by the Government of Canada.

The social support strategies are well embedded and growing. We have educated people in the Yukon who are deeply invested in this topic, who I dare say are not just national experts but would be recognized as international experts. I think from that point of view, there is a direct benefit. When you reach into ridings that are as far west as you can possibly get from the nation's capital, obviously the people of those regions are clearly supportive and appreciative of the attention. I think that sends a larger signal to Canada generally that if you are willing to reach out into those locations in our country, you have the best interest of the entire country at heart when you do that.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

You mentioned in your opening statement some of the research that has been done, some recent research and recent breakthroughs. Diagnosis was one of the things you mentioned. Can you take us through a little more detail about some of that research and tell us if you think more research needs to be done?

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

I think you'd hear from the broad community that more research needs to be done. NeuroDevNet is a great example of an organization that's doing a lot of work. They're trying to identify biomarkers. There is some positive evolution, but it's far from perfection. That's where investment is required. The Government of Canada did invest, I see here, $1.1 million into NeuroDevNet to help with FASD and autism research.

Those things are important in terms of diagnoses, understanding behavioural research. I think there is also value if you're looking for some direction in where else we can support research, understanding the required support services, be that housing, education, or human resource skills development. I think some research would be beneficial on that end so that when you do make the investments, you know they are the best investments that can be made, instead of just putting money into something and hoping you get a positive outcome. I think there is some value to having research ahead of time so you know what you're investing in. Any of those social support network stages are evidence based and are going to provide the best results.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

You mentioned also that there are some estimates of the costs to both society at large and the individuals who suffer from this disorder. You mentioned the amount of $1 million per person. Is that loss of income, or is that some other...?

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

That's the estimate based on care. That's direct cost to the individual or to society with respect to what it costs. As I said, you never get to the point of independent living with severe FASD. Assisted living always goes with it. Some provinces and municipalities do a better job of support, but the estimated cost is all around what that involves in the lifespan of a person with FASD. Some of those costs are going to vary, if you start extrapolating.... If they're in the justice system or costs they might create through misbehaviour, those sorts of things are very hard to measure and not tangible.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

I understand. You mentioned that some courts are now considering the impact of fetal alcohol spectrum disorder on convicted accused at time of sentencing. I think you also mentioned that it wasn't necessarily consistent throughout the courts in Canada. Can you tell us a little about the history, how long the courts have been considering this, what the prevalence is in your view of the courts that do consider when somebody has this disorder and when they don't?