Justice Committee on March 23rd, 2015

[Dr. Jocelynn Cook]

There is a need. At the SOGC, the Society of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists of Canada, we talk a lot about healthy pregnancy in general and making a package. Nutrition is important. Stress is important. Not taking drugs is important. Alcohol is important. It's a whole package of education around how to have a healthy pregnancy and a healthy baby.

You have to take the data with a grain of salt sometimes, because some women will report that they're drinking during pregnancy but they're having half a glass of wine.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Just before we go to Dr. Popova, do you see a similar impact with use of other drugs, for example marijuana? Does that have a similar kind of impact that alcohol has? No? Okay. Any other kinds of drug use?

[Dr. Jocelynn Cook]

No. There's a big study going on around the effects of THC, which is the active ingredient in marijuana. I haven't really looked closely at that report, but it just came out. I can access that. It's not teratogenic like alcohol. It doesn't cause birth defects in the brain.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

That's fair enough.

Dr. Popova, you had a comment.

[Dr. Svetlana Popova]

Thank you very much.

I just wanted to add about the prevalence of FASD. We don't know the true prevalence of FASD in the population of Canada. We have very outdated estimates, which were adopted from the United States. We believe it's only 1% of the population. Currently we are conducting a population-based study among elementary school children, and hopefully, in a year or so we will have a better idea about the prevalence of FASD in the general population.

We don't think that the level of FASD is decreasing. Unfortunately, it will increase in the near future for two reasons. The first reason is that alcohol consumption, especially among young women of child-bearing age, is increasing, especially binge drinking, which is the most detrimental pattern for FASD. The second reason is that the majority of pregnancies are unplanned. We believe that in developed countries it's about 50%.

Thank you.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Can I ask a question that I failed to ask Dr. Cook?

I thought you said there was maybe some scientific evidence that drinking prior to pregnancy may have some impact. Is that true?

[Dr. Jocelynn Cook]

Oh, that's exciting. That's a new field of epigenetics. There is evidence.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Dr. Jocelyn Cook]

Sorry, but I do love it. To me, it's huge. It's showing that there can be changes in a woman's genetics that can be passed on to her developing fetus that may make it more susceptible to toxic insults, including alcohol.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Okay, interesting.

Dr. Andrew...and then if I can, Mr. Chair, I'd like to ask Mr. Snow a question.

Dr. Andrew.

[Dr. Gail Andrew]

I'm all in support of awareness prevention campaigns through posters, coasters, or whatever it takes, but there have been really good studies that show awareness of the harmfulness of drinking during pregnancy does not necessarily change the behaviour. The stories of my birth mothers are horrendous. We have looked broadly at the social determinants of health. They are living in poverty and in domestic violence. They are in situations where even if they desperately want to change behaviour, they cannot without help. That's where we need those high-risk mother programs to actually bring them into harm reduction and a therapeutic environment.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Well, hopefully, we can collectively come up with some more strategies to reduce the incidence of FASD over time.

Mr. Snow, at any time have you represented clients in the criminal justice system, in your practice, who have FASD?

[Rodney Snow]

Not in the criminal justice....

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Okay, so you don't do criminal defence work?

[Rodney Snow]

No, I don't, sir—

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

But I assume you know lawyers who do. My question is around section 718.2 of the Criminal Code, which allows a defence counsel to raise any issue that might impact the sentencing of an accused who's been convicted that might be a mitigating factor. I wonder if you could tell us, if you know, do defence counsel typically raise this? If not, why not? If they don't, do you think they're negligent in not bringing it up if there is some evidence that their client may suffer from FASD?

[Rodney Snow]

Let me say that I think one of the biggest barriers to raising this issue is the inability to get assessments. At least that's the case in the cases I've heard about from individuals I've spoken with, and it's not just defence counsel. It's prosecutors whom I've spoken with as well who are very clear that they think we can do better in dealing with individuals with FASD. But a whole lot of it comes back to assessments—assess, assess, assess. We have to have the information for the judges.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Do you think a defence counsel who didn't raise it with his client as something that could affect the client's sentence would be seen as being negligent?

[Rodney Snow]

No, I don't think so.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for those questions and answers.

Our next questioner is from the New Democratic Party, Madam Péclet.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to all the witnesses for your great testimony.

My first question goes to Ms. Popova.

The figures you gave us are interesting. I am going to repeat what my colleague said, that the costs of correctional services have reached $378 million.

By way of comparison, can you give us any figures about individuals with FASD who have been incarcerated through the justice system and about others who, after being diagnosed, might have been taken into prevention and educational services? Do you have any figures for us about that?

You have given us figures about the costs of correctional services, but do you have any about the costs of prevention and education?

[Dr. Svetlana Popova]

Thank you very much for this question.

Actually, right now, you have given me a brilliant idea for further research, because such numbers don't exist but it would be great to estimate and show the difference.

Thank you.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Well, my pleasure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Madam Péclet, do you want Ms. Cook to respond?