Evidence of meeting #7 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was program.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

William F. Pentney  Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice
Donald Piragoff  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister's Office, Department of Justice
Marie-Josée Thivierge  Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Office of Assistant Deputy Minister, Management Sector and CFO, Department of Justice

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you for those questions, Mr. Jacob. Thank you for those answers, Minister.

Our next questioner is Mr. Brown, from the Conservative Party.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Patrick Brown Conservative Barrie, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister MacKay, for your comments today.

I also wanted to recognize the fact that this summer, on August 15, you did a justice consultation in the riding I represent, Barrie. I would imagine you did a lot of these round tables around the country. I know it was greatly appreciated in Barrie where you did that round table with the chief of police, Kimberley Greenwood. We had a wide variety of stakeholders in that room who appreciated the opportunity to give you their sentiments and suggestions.

One of the individuals there that day was Mackenzie Oliver, who is a young advocate for laws on cyberbullying. I think it's great that the government has led on this front.

I thought I would touch a little on that issue. Some of the critics of cyberbullying legislation have complained that it gives police new powers. I realize it is a difficult balance in terms of privacy and addressing the fears and the very real threat of cyberbullying. Given the reality that people have multiple digital devices across multiple networks, in multiple locations, and it could be in multiple countries, how do you balance privacy with that need to tackle this new challenge?

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Thank you very much, Mr. Brown.

I must commend your community for being one of the more active ones when it comes to the outreach that goes on. You have an extraordinary police chief and department. As well, I consider the child advocacy work that is done in the community of Barrie to be among the best.

We'll come back to your question on cyberbullying. The way you've described it is quite accurate. There have been very sophisticated efforts to exploit the Internet. Particularly of concern is this issue of exploitation of children: cyberbullying and also child pornography. There was a recent bust, if you will, in Toronto that captured a number of people involved in a pornography ring. That came about because the police are becoming more adept at investigating online.

It's necessary to give the police greater tools, greater access, and greater ability to police the Internet, to fight online crime, to match this growing sophistication and proliferation of the Internet for nefarious means, for criminality, whether it be exploiting children, whether it be for financial gain, or whether it be blackmail. All of that is to say that, in my estimation, the Criminal Code has not evolved fast enough.

What we're attempting to do is to bring crime fighting into the 21st century in allowing police, with judicial oversight and authorization, to go where the crime is happening. To do that, we have to give assurances that we are respecting privacy, that we are affording police the ability, but at the same time putting in the oversights and the traditional necessity to seek a warrant. That is the fine balance we seek to achieve in Bill C-13.

You're right. I know, Mr. Brown, you are more proficient on the Internet than many. You're very active on social media.

I heard some statistics recently. In the 1990s there were 130 websites, total, in the world. Now they number in the billions. That is how quickly we have seen this expansion in the cyberworld.

Police are facing an uphill battle, quite frankly, in being able to track the activity. Giving them the necessary support with judicial authorization, in my view, is all about protecting people. It is a fundamental goal of Public Safety Canada. We're looking forward to your input and the input from experts to ensure we get that balance right.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Patrick Brown Conservative Barrie, ON

Since we're talking about the supplementary estimates, what types of resources have been allocated for combatting cyberbullying? What type of emphasis has been put on your department particularly to address this new threat towards Canadians?

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

To be very honest with you, we are still calculating those figures because, with the passage of Bill C-13, I will require greater financial support because the activity is exploding, as you know. Police are going to be increasingly under pressure.

That may be a question perhaps better posed to Minister Blaney when he appears on this bill. It's difficult to calculate at this point just how much more police resources will be needed once they're given the ability to do further investigations online. I suspect it will be significant.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you very much, Mr. Brown.

Thank you for those answers, Minister.

Our next questioner is Madame Boivin, from the New Democratic Party.

9:30 a.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would first like to give notice of a motion, in light of what happened last week when, after the minister's presentation about the Supreme Court, we ended up sitting in camera to talk about the recommendations dealing with our part of Bill C-4. The notice of motion, which will be subsequently debated, reads as follows:

That the Committee may meet in camera only for the purpose of discussing: a. wages, salaries and other employee benefits; b. contracts and contract negotiations; c. labour relations and personnel matters; d. a draft report; e. briefings concerning national security; and That all votes taken in camera be recorded in the Minutes of Proceedings, including how each member voted when recorded votes are requested.

I will now turn to the minister.

When you read the article in The Globe and Mail this morning, you must have been happy to see that the Privacy Commissioner seemed to support Bill C-13. Clearly, it is not enough to read the title only. At any rate, this is what she said in the article:

She said the latest version appears to be an improvement and she doesn’t fault the government for linking lawful access and cyberbullying.

I would like to say that no one is blaming the government for linking the two. Mr. Minister, the issue that was raised yesterday is that one of the parts brings parliamentarians together whereas the other part has not yet been seriously studied in committee. That is why I am telling you once again that it is important to spend the required time on studying that part. The term “lawful access“ used in this article has to do with the tools that police officers have.

Also, you must not put words in the mouth of the Privacy Commissioner. In fact, she is right in saying that a more in-depth study might reveal something else. You are not going to claim this morning that she gave you carte blanche to do whatever you want.

That said, I am very interested in the victims bill of rights, an issue you have been talking about for a long time. The same goes for your predecessors, the Prime Minister and almost everyone in the Conservative cabinet. You talked about it earlier.

Making big media announcements on some issues is one of your government’s strengths. Sometimes, I would prefer it if you gave that money to the victims.

Has your department already started to think about the funds you are going to spend on advertising? Are you going to come back and ask us for additional funding for your department to promote your victims bill of rights all over the place? By the way, I really look forward to reading it.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Thank you very much, Madame Boivin. Thank you for your commentary yesterday, as well as Mr. Casey's.

As I said in the House, I do believe that this is an opportunity for parliamentarians to really come together and do what we do best in examining in a very rigorous way the provisions of Bill C-13. The other bill that you've referenced, the forthcoming victims bill of rights, will have very broad application, and I suspect, a transformative impact on our criminal justice system.

I've been around here and sat in opposition long enough to know that there are no blank cheques. No matter the enormity of the bill, there is always going to be a cost associated with its implementation, particularly something as broad and inclusive as the intended bill of rights for victims.

I want to come back to something that you said and referenced in the House yesterday, and that is the necessity to match this legislation and its intent with what police are going to be required to do. There will be an enormous burden placed on police and an enormous amount of new, sophisticated response required by police.

I suspect you're very familiar with the work of the Canadian Centre for Child Protection that works out of Winnipeg. They do a tremendous amount of the type of tracking that this bill envisages, and which the Privacy Commissioner is referencing. It's tantamount to that important balance that's required that you cannot allow police to be too invasive, and they can't do that under these provisions without judicial authorization. That is what I suspect many will be watching closely.

This is what differentiates this legislation from previous attempts. You're right that while the Privacy Commissioner endorses it generally, she still poses some very important questions. She recognizes that all of the aspects of privacy must be very much respected and that there is consequential legislation that also plays a role in the enforcement around cyber.... That is very much contemplated, and I know there will be further opportunity to hear from witnesses on this particular bill, but I appreciate your expression of cooperation on this.

The NDP, Mr. Chisholm from my province of Nova Scotia, brought forward a bill very much in line and in keeping with this intent. What was missing, and I say this respectfully, was the ability to empower the police to enforce the first part of this bill, which is the non-consensual distribution of intimate images. You need to have both parts working in concert to truly get the effect that we're after.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you for those questions and thank you for those answers.

Our next questioner is Mr. Calkins, from the Conservative Party.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here today. It's quite enlightening to hear what the government has planned going forward with the legislative agenda. I know that my colleagues and I are looking forward to having that legislation come to this committee.

Minister, you've been here a little longer than I have been here, and I have been here for quite a while now. I'm looking at the estimates—we go through this exercise quite frequently—and I notice that there are changes made in the preparation of the main and supplementary estimates. Basically it looks as if there's more information available. It's provided in a more usable format, and it's easier to read.

I'll give you an example. In both the published books and the online tables, various departments and agencies are presented alphabetically according to the legal name of the department or agency. It makes it easier to find the organizations, and so on.

I was wondering if you could enlighten us as parliamentarians here at the table on the importance of making these estimates not only more understandable for the general public, but also for the work that we do here as parliamentarians. I think this is an ongoing theme of openness and transparency that we've established here through various other mechanisms as well. Could you explain how this fits into that context?

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Sure. Thank you very much, Mr. Calkins.

I know that you have been very diligent in your committee work as well as in calling upon our own government to pursue this effort of being accountable, being open and transparent in the finances of every department.

That's what this main estimates and supplementary estimates process is all about. Greater accountability has been the cornerstone of our government, greater ability to translate that to the public in a more understandable way. We're not all accountants. We're not all perhaps as well versed with finances as we should be. Certainly as we approach tax time, this becomes more and more evident in my own household. Having more information presented in a way that the public can digest, that they can understand the line items and what they're connected to....

We were speaking earlier about programming and how that money is spent. That's true across government. People need to see the direct correlation between how money is spent and what results are achieved as a result.

As members of this committee know, this estimates process is really all about that direct accountability. Laying it out in the format as you see before you in clearer and more understandable terms is what we've sought to achieve. I appreciate your having noticed that and pointing it out. It is something that I believe all departments are working very diligently to continue to achieve.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Keeping in that vein, and as we move forward to getting back to balanced budgets, which I know is critically important as well, you've been a minister as long as I've been here, and I came here in 2006. I know that as a minister it doesn't matter what ministry you're in, you're constantly presented with funding proposals, as I am as a member of Parliament, and with ideas and so on for various initiatives that people have.

When it comes to your department as a whole, do you review the programs and look at efficiencies and the effectiveness of the program? While I assume the answer to that question is yes, I would like to know more about how that happens.

Is it an ongoing process? Is it a batch...? Is it a pulse process that you go through? Is it something like simply responding to the Auditor General? How do those efficiencies get found? How does that effectiveness get found? Then, of course, how do the results that we just talked about in the previous question get monitored and analyzed? How does that help you make the decisions as to what programs are important?

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Mr. Calkins, you're demonstrating a fairly acute understanding of how it works. It's all of the above. It is a continual process.

I work very closely with Mr. Pentney and Mr. Piragoff, officials within the Department of Justice, as we examine programs and program proposals to determine what we can do within the parameters of our budget. We receive, as you would expect, more proposals than we have funding to support, so we have to make informed decisions about how the money is spent.

At the same time, the backdrop that all ministers are facing right now is the commitment to return to a balanced budget in the near term, in 2015. That ever-present sentiment of restraint is something that governments have asked of Canadians and Canadians have asked of us. It is our intent, certainly at the Department of Justice, to stay within the parameters of our spending.

I'm glad to see that we've taken necessary steps to ensure greater accountability and greater transparency. For that reason, I'm able to come before you on a fairly regular basis and answer questions about spending within the Department of Justice. Moving forward, I expect that there is going to be more expectation of this, because once we return to balanced budgets, I think certainly Hon. Jim Flaherty's signal to all of us is that it's the intent to keep budgets balanced in the future.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you very much.

Thank you for those questions and those answers.

Our final questioner, for two minutes, is Madame Boivin, from the New Democratic Party.

9:40 a.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Two minutes for me is something I can rarely achieve, but anyway....

Now I want to talk about access to justice. This interests me a great deal and it must interest you as well. This is the time when we talk about the budget, and the message that we are getting is that we have to tighten our belts. However, without justice, our society is in trouble. This lack of access can take a number of forms. For instance, the shortage of judges in Alberta and Quebec is overwhelming. The chief justice in my district, in the riding of Gatineau, said there was an expert, a judge from the Superior Court, who could be in charge of jury trials, but he will retire at the end of the year. So there will be no one to take on that task. There are also pressing needs in other districts.

How will we be able to implement all those new bills if the courthouses are burdened with incredible delays? Very smart defence attorneys will claim unreasonable delays.

Do you expect things to change?

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Thank you for your question.

As you pointed out, having sufficient judges to deal with the number of cases handled by courts is a major issue.

I can tell you that in the relatively short time I've been Minister of Justice I have spent a good deal of time addressing this issue. In particular, one of the issues had to do with ensuring that the judicial advisory committees were properly assembled across the country. We have done that. We have cut in half the number of positions that were outstanding for replacement. Now, I'm going to come to your question about additional judges. We're hopeful that in the very near future we will fill virtually all of the vacant positions, thus addressing the number of positions that were vacant.

On the issue of new judges positions both in Alberta and the court of Quebec, I've spoken directly to the chief justices of both those provinces and to the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Canada on this subject matter. I can tell you we are undertaking to address their concerns, perhaps not fully, perhaps not to the extent that in a different fiscal time we could perhaps respond differently, but the reality is we're doing this on par across the country. We're looking at the demographics.

I spoke with the Minister of Justice in Alberta who makes a very strong case that there has been, in fact, a million new residents in Alberta in the last 10 years. That causes significant strain on the justice system, just as it would on the health care system, the social services, and other infrastructure. We're in a constant competition when it comes to the resources necessary to address that reality, but I'm very conscious of it.

I appreciate your raising that. We're going to continue to work with those provinces, in particular, to address their needs.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Minister, for joining us for this first hour and answering questions on estimates and other topics within your ministry.

We will suspend for a moment while the minister leaves. The officials are going to stay with us for the next hour.

Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. We are now in the second hour.

We are joined by justice officials. Just so you know, as we know on committee, there is a potential vote or a ringing of the bells at 10:15. There could be voice votes, so the bells may not ring. I'm putting you on notice just in case that does happen. If we don't hear any bells, we'll continue on.

Based on my experience of eight years here, the second hour is not always filled with questions for officials. We will work through the normal process and then if we run out of questions, we will complete it with our officials.

Then we do have in camera business to do with a report of the subcommittee on agenda which I would like to get to. It should only take a minute, but we need to get to that.

With that, Mr. Pentney, if you want to take the lead and introduce your colleagues who are with you and if you have any opening statements, the floor is yours.

9:45 a.m.

Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice

William F. Pentney

I have no opening statement, Mr. Chair. We welcome your questions.

I'm here with Don Piragoff, senior assistant deputy minister responsible for the policy sector. Also with me is Marie-Josée Thivierge.

Ms. Thivierge is responsible for the administration and the financial issues.

My colleagues and I will take turns talking about the complex financial issues.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Our first questioner is Madame Boivin, from the New Democratic Party.

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the three witnesses for joining us this morning.

I always appreciate your visits, Mr. Pentney. Whenever you are not able to answer our questions, you send the information to us later. You keep your word. That is what I think you did in March after your last appearance before the committee. We always appreciate that.

We mostly talked about some bills with the minister. At any rate, additional funding is including for the director of public prosecutions. My understanding is that this request basically has to do with changing offices. However, I see that the budget of the director of public prosecutions is dropping, whereas the number of files is going up. I am just wondering if we are not going to hit a wall at some point.

Could you perhaps elaborate on the issue?

9:50 a.m.

Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice

William F. Pentney

Thank you for your question.

The budget of the director of public prosecutions comes from the Department of Justice portfolio, but it is independent. It is up to him to explain and defend his budget requests. The minister presents those requests to cabinet and to Parliament, but the director prepares them himself. I am sure that Brian Saunders would be happy to come here to explain how he handles his files and budgets during this time of restraint. However, I cannot give an answer because he is independent. It would not be appropriate for me to answer that question.

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

The question is specific. If the Minister of Justice must present the request to cabinet or defend the case, he is responsible for it.

9:50 a.m.

Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

The request is for an additional $3.8 million. So I cannot believe that you are not able to tell us what it is exactly. You might not be able to talk about his plan or plans for next year, I agree, but the fact remains that you will certainly not tell cabinet that you have no idea what the director of public prosecutions will do with $3.8 million.

9:50 a.m.

Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice

William F. Pentney

I am not saying that I have no idea, but I am the Deputy Minister of Justice. The government decided to divide the Department of Justice into two. In fact, as soon as the government was elected, it created a separate office. I cannot speak for the previous deputy minister or for Brian Saunders, the director of public prosecutions. Our system says that he is responsible for rights management and for managing the offices of the lawyers in that team.