Justice Committee on Nov. 28th, 2013

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

I look forward to the conversation we're going to have with Michael Geist at committee on this. He holds a different view and is much more qualified than certainly I am, perhaps not you, to get into the finer points of it.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

The Privacy Commissioner, too, I think will have some important observations to make, as will others. You mentioned one individual. There is obviously going to be a difference of opinion among certain civil libertarians and others who will not be satisfied with those assurances.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Fair enough. Thank you.

In your opening remarks, you talked about what you like to call the tough-on-crime agenda. What studies, Mr. Minister, have been done about the increased costs of mandatory minimums and the criminal law policy of this government?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

There have been numerous studies done. In fact, there was a study yesterday which I saw that was quite interesting. It showed, in fact, that the per capita population of the inmate population, as compared to the Canadian population, has not actually increased, which runs contrary to other studies that I've seen.

What we're trying to do, Mr. Casey, as you know, is demonstrate accountability to call upon those offenders who have committed serious violent offences. That is where the emphasis has been, and that is where I can speak only for myself as justice minister in this observation. That is where the line has to be drawn when it comes to sentences that truly reflect society's abhorrence of violence and sexual violence. That is where it is our view, my view, that longer periods of incarceration are appropriate. They're appropriate on a number of fronts, to protect the public from further violence, to send a message of general and specific deterrence, not losing sight of the fact that eventually, in most instances—the majority—that offender will be released.

The opportunity for rehabilitation sometimes is also assisted by a lengthier period of incarceration. This is a factor. As you know, having practised law, prosecutors will very often discuss with defence counsel the need for a person to access drug and alcohol rehabilitation, and better counselling when it comes to violent behaviour. Sometimes that takes a longer period of time. Those are all factors that have to be considered, and this is very much behind our view—and it's perhaps a different philosophy from your own—that some periods of incarceration should be mandatory.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Is the department in possession of cost estimates for this agenda, or not?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

I'm not aware of what studies we have, but we certainly have empirical data. I would let our deputy minister speak to that.

[William F. Pentney, Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice]

Mr. Chair, documents were provided, for example, to Parliament in respect to the costing of Bill C-10 at the time, in terms of requests, and we certainly continue to watch the impact of this. We don't run a comprehensive database. Over 80% of the administration of justice is done by provincial authorities. The downstream impacts of these measures will take some time to assess, but we will certainly be working with our provincial colleagues to monitor that.

I should say, as well, trying to capture, in some sort of scientific and empirical way, the impact of this in the context of a changing society, in the context of evolving crime patterns, in the context of evolving policing activities and prosecution decisions, is a complex undertaking. We have taken steps to try to bring more science and rigour to the costing. We have experts who would be happy to provide to the committee, who could talk about the all-in impacts on society of victimization and crime.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Minister, thank you for those answers, and thank you for those questions, Mr. Casey.

Our next questioner is from the Conservative Party, Monsieur Goguen.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, and officials, for appearing today.

Obviously, Mr. Minister, it's a very busy schedule this week again, with the tabling of the not criminally responsible reform act. I'm wondering if you could explain to the committee how the proposed amendments will better protect Canadians and how these measures will give a greater voice to victims.

I also note your comment that, in essence, this legislation may, to some extent, take away some stigma for those accused or found to be mentally deficient in the sense that the high risk designation will be so marginally, and I guess very strictly, applied.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Goguen, and thank you for all your hard work on this file and others.

I will come back to an earlier question from Mr. Casey on this. The designation of high-risk offender gives the system, hence the provincial and territorial authorities we work with and those who are tasked daily to work with individuals who have been found either responsible or not criminally responsible but have committed acts of violence.... We believe this puts further emphasis on the protection of the public and allows for greater discretion as to the length of treatment for individuals—and I want to be very clear that we are talking about continuing the treatment options for individuals found not criminally responsible—held in a secure mental health facility as opposed to a penal facility. Putting the protection of the public and the victim at the centre of this process is what we seek to achieve.

It also creates this high-risk designation, which some might say stigmatizes, but it is akin to the dangerous offender designation that applies in the regular criminal law system. This high-risk offender designation is separate from other designations of not criminally responsible. It says that this individual, because of the act committed and because of the psychiatric assessment that has been done, poses such a risk to the public or themselves—and let's not forget that is very often part of a risk calculation—that they will require perhaps longer treatment and a more rigorous examination by the provincial and territorial review boards responsible for determining the time of their release. I truly believe that de-stigmatizes others who don't have and don't carry that high-risk designation.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

It actually rebalances the rights of both of the parties in a sense, does it not? There is greater protection of the public and greater protection of the accused because of an enhanced treatment.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

I think it builds on the expertise that has evolved over time when it comes to making that determination. We've consulted broadly with the provinces and territories on this subject matter. I've spoken to prosecutors I have worked with in the past, and they feel this will, as you said, strike a better balance between protecting the public from individuals who can....

I don't have to remind anyone on this committee of the very high-profile cases in which not criminally responsible individuals committed horrific acts of violence. The beheading on the bus of Tim McLean is one that comes to mind. I hesitate to even mention it, because I know Tim McLean's mother is clearly still very traumatized and horrified by what happened, as everyone is.

Those are the types of cases in which we believe this provides better protection for the public and perhaps a longer period of examination for fitness to return to society.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Criminal incidents that parallel Stephen King movies are better placed in the cinemas than they are before the courts, no question.

Thank you, Minister.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

You're absolutely right.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much.

Our next question is from Mr. Jacob of the New Democratic Party.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Minister, thank you for joining us this morning.

In his report, the Correctional Investigator of Canada, Howard Sapers, points out that Aboriginal people account for 25% of inmates in Canada, yet they represent only 4% of the total population.

What do you actually intend to do to address that issue?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Well, it's a very complex question that is going to require an effort across many departments, including my own.

Mr. Kellway asked questions about the justice programming for aboriginals, and that is one way we're attempting to address their disproportionate representation in our criminal justice system, which you've alluded to. These are issues of very complex questions on how we improve their access to education, how we improve housing, and on-reserve access to facilities and to health.

It is really, as we all know, one of the greatest challenges this country faces. Criminality is but one part of the enormous challenge that aboriginal communities face across Canada. Their isolation, their access to things such as the Internet, their access to education, all those things that sometimes Canadians living in more urban centres take for granted.

With respect to their disproportionate numbers in our prison system, it is going to take a concerted effort to continue this programming, coupled with enormous effort in combination with many other departments of government, and perhaps more importantly, in very close consultation with aboriginal leadership.

I met with Grand Chief Shawn Atleo just a few weeks ago. We had a very good discussion. He is a leader in every sense of the word. He brought forward some very good suggestions, some specific to the issues of the aboriginal justice programs that we're going to work with him on.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

If I understand correctly, you intend to invest in targeted programs specifically to solve this problem.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

We have programs now that are targeted to the aboriginal communities.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Yes, but since that does not seem to work, I would like to know if you think it is important to invest more in order to solve this problem.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

That's what we have been doing, yes.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Does the Aboriginal Justice Strategy take this issue in consideration?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

We believe it is, from the data we have and the indications of the effect on recidivism. It appears that the young aboriginals, men in particular, who have participated in these programs are far less likely to recommit.

Another program I failed to mention in my earlier response is the junior rangers program, which provides predominantly young aboriginal men, although it's not closed to women, the opportunity to participate in patrol exercises. I have some working knowledge of that from my prior portfolio, where these programs are akin to the cadet program run through the Department of National Defence. It's very much married to the traditional way of life, being on the land, hunting, being out and keeping an eye on what's happening around the communities. This is a program we have sought to expand as well.

When I said that we need to do this in conjunction with other departments, that's one example of where the justice department is working to try to expand the availability of programs across different fields.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

As you know, the Aboriginal Justice Strategy is a shared responsibility.

Do you meet with the provinces on a regular basis to discuss those programs?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Yes, that's correct. The provinces and territories are very much partners in the aboriginal justice strategy, 50:50 cost-sharing.