Evidence of meeting #72 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was dog.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sergeant Troy Carriere  Staff Sergeant, Canine and Flight Operations Section, Edmonton Police Service
Stephen Kaye  President, Canadian Police Canine Association
Diane Bergeron  Executive Director, Strategic Relations and Engagement, Canadian National Institute for the Blind
Barbara Cartwright  Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Federation of Humane Societies

4:15 p.m.

S/Sgt Troy Carriere

Agreed.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Mr. Kaye?

4:15 p.m.

President, Canadian Police Canine Association

Stephen Kaye

Again, having been in service for many years, as Troy alluded to, we have an understanding of how the courts work and what 18 months actually equates to. If you've spent some time on remand, etc., these numbers become alarmingly small, alarmingly quickly.

A saying I've heard a number of times that has really always stuck with me is that it's not the fear of punishment that deters crime, it's the certainty of punishment that deters crime. To put it in lay terms, if I pick up a hammer and have a very unfortunate experience because of a lack of coordination with that hammer and I hurt myself, the very first thought in my brain the next time I pick up that hammer will be about the bad thing that happened. The first time I heard that saying—I can't remember where, but it's a quote from someone—it stuck with me. It's a very powerful statement that this truly is what deterrence is.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

It's so true.

4:15 p.m.

President, Canadian Police Canine Association

Stephen Kaye

It's the certainty that there will be a consequence.

I'll expand on what Troy said, in the other sense that I deal with people across this country who are dog-passionate people. They come out to public demonstrations, presentations, and the competitions that we do. We did one last year in Kelowna. We had over 10,000 people out to it, including constituents, residents, and non-police officers who cannot believe that this legislation is not in place. Some of them actually have a false belief or have been misled to believe that this legislation is in place.

As a spokesperson for a lot of dog people, I find myself caught periodically having to say—and again, I'm not proud to say it—that we're working on it, and that we have been since 2000, arguably, when I entered the game with my incident. We've been trying to do this, but we're not quite there yet.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

We're listening. We're here.

4:20 p.m.

President, Canadian Police Canine Association

Stephen Kaye

I appreciate that, sir.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you for those questions and answers.

Our next questioner, from the Liberal Party, is Mr. Casey.

April 29th, 2015 / 4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to start with you, Mr. Kaye. One of the things that I try to do and that I think probably other committee members try to do any time we have a piece of legislation before us is to get an understanding of the problem that it seeks to address, the magnitude of that problem, and the prevalence.

When I tried to do that, the only evidence that I could find was from your organization. Your organization has indicated that 10 police dogs have been killed in the line of duty between May 25, 1965, and and October 7, 2013, a period of 48 years, three of which were killed over the past decade.

Have I accurately quoted your organization? Did those stats come from the Canadian Police Canine Association?

4:20 p.m.

President, Canadian Police Canine Association

Stephen Kaye

That is posted on our website. That's correct.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Okay. Thank you.

4:20 p.m.

President, Canadian Police Canine Association

Stephen Kaye

Is that figure accurate? No, it's not.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

What is?

4:20 p.m.

President, Canadian Police Canine Association

Stephen Kaye

We don't have them all on there. The Edmonton Police Service has lost a number that haven't been added to the list.

I think that sometimes it's the nature of events. A dog that is shot and killed is going to be on the website. If a dog died in a car collision while a member was responding to a call because the member was in a collision, hit a light standard, and the dog was crushed against the light standard, that dog didn't make the list. Did that dog die serving its community while it was en route to a call while on duty? I would argue, yes, they sure did. It's no different from how the member would be compensated by his agency and by whatever insurance company had the member expired en route to a call while he was on duty.

What you're seeing on there are the ones that have been brought to our attention that are of a more dramatic effect, but it's not complete. We don't have every single dog on there.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Can we find a more reliable number somewhere in order to get an appreciation for the magnitude of the problem?

4:20 p.m.

President, Canadian Police Canine Association

Stephen Kaye

I get asked reasonably frequently how often a service dog is hurt or killed. The fact of the matter is that a lot of police officers don't lay the cruelty to animal charge, because it's ridiculous. There are a lot of other charges that are laid. There's a belief that not very much is going to happen. They might get a little fine for the animal cruelty charge, or based on a plea bargain, that is going to be the first charge that goes out the door. It will be gone.

There's less emphasis put on the role of the dog and what occurs to the dog than there is on what occurs to a human or in a loss of property, etc., so it's one of the first ones to be dealt away. It's not laid with great consistency because I don't think officers have a strong belief in the punishment component of a cruelty to animal charge. We don't track it. Whereas if we had legislation like this, where it's specific to law enforcement, give me a few years and I'll be able to give you some extremely accurate numbers. You'll have access to those numbers as well, I would expect.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Thank you.

Ms. Cartwright, Ms. Bergeron, same question for you.

Can you help us get a handle on the magnitude of this problem? The only stats I was able to find, I'm told today, aren't reliable. Do you have any that might be in the possession of your organizations that would give us some sense of the prevalence of the issue?

4:25 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Federation of Humane Societies

Barbara Cartwright

No. I think, based on Stephen's comments now, what we do have is how many animal cruelty cases happen and how often those animal cruelty cases are inflicted on a service animal or a police animal in the line of duty. I went through our database to try and pull that specific information out and I couldn't pull that specific information out the way the case law is written.

That requires the knowledge of the local person who is involved knowing that Quanto was a police dog. If this wasn't as high profile a case it may not have ever come out in the finding that it was a police dog, but rather a dog. Very often animal cruelty charges at the federal level are not levelled exactly because of what Mr. Kaye alluded to, which is a disbelief that the penalties...or that it's going to go to conviction, or that it will be a proportional sentencing if it gets to conviction. They'll work to find other ways to charge that criminal so that the criminal does face justice, even if there is the collateral damage of the injury to the animal.

I concur with Mr. Kaye that having a specific offence such as this will allow us to better track each incident of animal cruelty inflicted upon a service animal.

4:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Strategic Relations and Engagement, Canadian National Institute for the Blind

Diane Bergeron

From the CNIB's perspective, we do not gather information or statistics on this type of information.

As a person who uses a service dog—I know a lot of people who have service dogs—I would say, from the people that I know, I can't think of one guide dog handler who has not faced an incident where their dog has been attacked by another dog. Usually it's quickly handled, but in many incidences the animals have to be retired and they get a new dog. We don't have those stats because it's not reported. For a dog-on-dog attack there's nothing you can do about that. It's two dogs that get into a fight. It's not seen as any different if it's a service dog that's been attacked.

The issue around whether or not someone could, if it was a person attacking...again I go back to if I can't visually identify the person, I can't chase the person, and I can't follow them. Unless I have a witness standing there who stops, calls the police, and identifies them, I have no way of doing anything about it. We don't have any specific statistics.

I know that some folks at The Seeing Eye in New Jersey did a survey of their graduates—and I don't have the stat with me, but I could find it for you—and off the top of my head I believe they said something like 80% of their students expressed that their dogs had been attacked by another animal at some point in time.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Sergeant Carriere, in your opening remarks you expressed some optimism, or I think maybe even a belief, that this law would allow for a conviction of those who recklessly or negligently maim or injure a service animal. You heard Ms. Cartwright express frustration over the term “wilful neglect” in the animal cruelty laws.

That “wilful” term also appears in this law. Over and above the mens rea element of any criminal offence, the crown will have to establish wilfulness in order to secure a conviction. Does that cause you concern in your expression of optimism that this will cover reckless or negligent injury to an animal?

My suggestion to you is that maybe in this law the bar is too high.

4:25 p.m.

S/Sgt Troy Carriere

I'd have to disagree because when we get to court anything is possible.

We're very fortunate here in Edmonton that we have a special crown that deals with these specific incidents. I think you've heard nationally there's a wide range on the spectrum as to whether these charges are pursued. Was this a high-profile case? Absolutely. Even if it wasn't I think we would have seen the crown lay the charge and pursue it.

What I'm trying to say is that I believe this bill, and the way it's written, will...because it is in very plain language. It's set out clearly as to how to proceed, whether you're a law enforcement laying the charge, or in fact you're the crown prosecutor trying to prove this charge in court. It's two separate things. The likelihood of conviction is always the threshold that everyone is always trying to look at. Can we prove this charge successfully in court?

My belief is that the way this bill is written, a crown prosecutor will be more often successful if the evidence is there to present itself. That's on us as law enforcement to make sure that we do have the evidence there to present the case.

I do believe that even though the bar may be set high, I think it's for a good reason. This whole bill is for a good reason and I do support the way it's written.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you very much for those questions and answers.

Our next questioner, from the Conservative Party, is Mr. Dechert.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to each of our guests for being here today.

Mr. Chair, I'd like to recognize for the record that we've been joined just recently by the original sponsor of this bill, Costas Menegakis, member for Richmond Hill, and I want to thank him for all the hard work he did in the initial stages of bringing the necessity of this bill to the government's attention.

I'd like to start with Ms. Bergeron, if I may.

First of all, Ms. Bergeron, through you, I'd like to thank the Canadian National Institute for the Blind for the very good work they do to help visually impaired people across Canada. I've had a relative who lost his vision through a form of cancer and was assisted greatly by the CNIB, and I've known many other people who have been assisted by the CNIB. I think they do fabulous work, so I want to thank the CNIB for that.

I also want to say that you, Lucy, and I have met a few times before. It was largely through the comments you made to our government that we included service animals in this legislation. I think you made great representations on behalf of the owners, the handlers of all service animals, and the people who are served by these animals as to how important they are to people's lives. I want to thank you for making that really strong contribution to this legislation.

You talked a bit about the training that your dogs have gone through. I think you pointed out in your opening comments that they receive more than two years in total of training before they go into service with a person. Could you tell us if there are different kinds of training for animals that perform different duties, how long they train, and what costs are associated with training these animals?

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Strategic Relations and Engagement, Canadian National Institute for the Blind

Diane Bergeron

We have met several times on other issues. Thank you very much for keeping the perspective of service dogs front of mind in this.

Traditionally, people with vision loss who have dogs that guide them have either rescue dogs or a breeding program. If it's a breeding program, when the dog is approximately eight weeks old they go to what's called a “puppy raiser”, typically a family that spends the next 10 to 11 months of their lives socializing the dog, taking the dog out, getting it used to various noises and so on, and getting them prepared for moving forward into their job.

When the dog hits about a year old, they are taken back to the school and assessed. If they are accepted, they go into the formal program, which is typically four or five months long at that point. It depends on the dog. Sometimes they go through more quickly, sometimes more slowly. At that stage of the game, they are trained for the work. It's basic training such as finding doors, stairs, chairs, elevators, escalators, and stopping us from being hit by a car, and so on, when we're crossing streets.

We go to the school or the school provides home training, depending on the school you go to, usually for three to four weeks at that stage, and then we become graduates as a team with our dogs. At that stage, it takes about six months to a year for you and that dog to be a good working team, to the point where you can just flick your hand in a direction and your dog will go that way or you can give them a certain noise as opposed to giving them formal words.

The cost for one of these dogs—again, depending on the dog and what they're trained to do—can be anywhere from $30,000 to $80,000 per dog, taking into account medical costs, the time they spend with their puppy raisers, the cost of feeding and so on, and the formal training process. Some service dogs for people who use wheelchairs will go through a different training procedure, and it may take a little longer and cost a little more money. Other dogs might be trained for other activities that don't take quite as long.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

That's very good.

I wonder if you could tell us where the service training facilities are located in Canada. I'll ask the same question of Mr. Kaye with respect to law enforcement animals.