Evidence of meeting #104 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was bail.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard
Paulette Corriveau  Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Policy Sector, Department of Justice
Carole Morency  Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Policy Sector, Department of Justice
Shannon Davis-Ermuth  Legal Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Policy Sector, Department of Justice
Matthew Taylor  Acting Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Policy Sector, Department of Justice
Arif Virani  Parkdale—High Park, Lib.
Don Beardall  General Counsel, Drug, National Security and Northern Prosecutions Branch, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions
Paul-Matthieu Grondin  Bâtonnier du Québec, Barreau du Québec
Pascal Lévesque  President, Criminal Law Committee, Barreau du Québec
Nicolas Le Grand Alary  Laywer, Secretariat of the Order and Legal Affairs, Barreau du Québec
Paul Doroshenko  Barrister and Solicitor, Acumen Law Corporation
Kyla Lee  Barrister and Solicitor, Acumen Law Corporation
Abby Deshman  Director, Criminal Justice Program, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Suzanne Clément  Advisor, Law Society of Ontario
Jonathan Rudin  Program Director, Aboriginal Legal Services
Malcolm Mercer  Treasurer and President, Law Society of Ontario
Ronald Rosenes  Community Health Advocate and Consultant, As an Individual

4:15 p.m.

Parkdale—High Park, Lib.

Arif Virani

Thank you for your contributions and for the work you've been doing.

I have two very straightforward questions, and I apologize if these are covered in any of the materials that I haven't gone through yet.

On hybridization, is the election of the Crown, currently or as contemplated by this bill, subject to any judicial oversight? Can the judge weigh in and disagree with the Crown on the election?

Second, for Mr. Beardall and Mr. Taylor, on the issue of routine evidence, if it does go in by way of affidavit, is there any back-end possibility of cross-examining on the affidavit itself, or is it either a routine proceedings affidavit or a live cross-examination in court?

4:15 p.m.

Legal Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Policy Sector, Department of Justice

Shannon Davis-Ermuth

On the first question, in relation to hybridization, currently the election of the Crown is solely at the Crown's discretion, and the judge cannot change that. The bill does not change that, either.

4:15 p.m.

General Counsel, Drug, National Security and Northern Prosecutions Branch, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions

Don Beardall

Well, Mr. Taylor can correct me if my memory fails me, but I believe that the bill does contemplate that there could be cross-examination on the affidavit itself. I doubt that it would be used very often, because if you have to bring the officer to court anyway, you might as well put him on the stand and lead him through his evidence-in-chief. I suppose there might be exceptions to that, but the possibility that you contemplate does exist.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Does anybody want to add anything?

Colleagues, I have one brief question, if I may. On the issue of hybridization, I've heard a number of commentators and individuals weigh in on how the selection is made when there are similar offences in the Criminal Code, with similar penalties, and on how some offences weren't hybridized and others were. I don't know if you've had a chance to read the brief from CIJA, for example. They talk about hate crime offences, terrorism offences, etc., that are hybridized, but other offences are not. Can you walk us through the criteria for that selection?

4:20 p.m.

Legal Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Policy Sector, Department of Justice

Shannon Davis-Ermuth

Certainly. The bill takes a purely procedural approach to hybridization. Some of the concerns that have been raised are based on the concern that hybridizing offences makes a statement about the severity of the offence. However, as the minister has mentioned, it's a purely procedural approach. It's looking at how to make courts more efficient. It took an entire category of offences, without looking at them offence by offence, and hybridized everything that currently has an indictable penalty with a maximum imprisonment of 10 years or less. That's the general approach.

The idea, as the minister has mentioned, is that it doesn't change the sentencing outcome, so it's not really based on the severity of the individual offences, but just on allowing the Crown the discretion to maximize the efficiencies of the court by choosing the right venue for a given case based on the severity.

One thing I didn't mention earlier when I mentioned the different types of offences is that a hybrid offence, generally, is an offence that's recognized as having a range of conduct that's possible. That's why it could be prosecuted in different ways. Now, with a number of the offences that are not hybridized, even if the Crown is seeking something in the summary conviction range, if it's clearly indictable, it has to proceed by indictment and the full range of procedural protections have to be available.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

I totally understand. The minister was clear about that. Are you saying that every single offence in the Criminal Code for which the penalty is 10 years or less is now hybridized? I keep hearing that they are not. I have seen multiple examples where they're claiming they are not hybridized in this bill. I haven't found something, so perhaps you could tell me if that was the intention.

4:20 p.m.

Legal Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Policy Sector, Department of Justice

Shannon Davis-Ermuth

That is the intention. With some of the ones that are not hybridized by the bill—and my colleague Mr. Taylor may want to elaborate on this—because this bill doesn't deal with mandatory minimum penalties, it may be complicated to hybridize some offences if, for example, the existing mandatory minimum penalty was higher than that in the summary conviction range. The decision was that those offences be not hybridized at this time, while the sentencing review continues.

4:20 p.m.

Acting Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Policy Sector, Department of Justice

Matthew Taylor

The only thing I would add is that, as you know, Bill C-51, which is in the Senate right now, proposes to repeal a number of offences that are obsolete or redundant to other offences of general application. I don't have the list in front of me. Those offences are not being hybridized in this bill either. If the committee is interested, we can give you the list of those specific offences that are being repealed in Bill C-51.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Sure, please do.

Are there any other questions, colleagues? If not, I want to thank all members of the panel for coming before us and answering our questions. It's really appreciated.

I've been told by the clerk that they're having an issue with the captioning, so we're going to suspend for five minutes before we hear from the Barreau du Québec, while they attempt to fix that. The meeting is suspended for five minutes.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Welcome back to the meeting of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights as we continue our study of Bill C-75.

Before we go to our next witnesses, I want to mention to colleagues that two briefs submitted by witnesses appearing later today have come back from translation. I would ask colleagues to look at the briefs of Acumen Law and Ron Rosenes whenever they can.

It is a pleasure to welcome our witnesses from the Barreau du Québec.

With us today is Paul-Matthieu Grondin, the Bâtonnier du Québec.

Welcone, Mr. Grondin.

4:35 p.m.

Paul-Matthieu Grondin Bâtonnier du Québec, Barreau du Québec

Thank you.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

We also have Pascal Lévesque, who is the president of the Barreau du Québec's Criminal Law Committee.

Welcome.

September 17th, 2018 / 4:35 p.m.

Pascal Lévesque President, Criminal Law Committee, Barreau du Québec

Thank you.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

We also have with us Nicolas Le Grand Alary.

He is a lawyer in the secretariat of the order and legal affairs.

Welcome to you all. We are very pleased to have you with us.

As a member of the Barreau du Québec, I am very happy to see its representatives here.

I know that Mr. Deltell is too.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

I am not a member of the Barreau.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

No, but I am sure that you are happy that the Barreau is represented here.

Mr. Grondin, the floor is yours.

4:35 p.m.

Bâtonnier du Québec, Barreau du Québec

Paul-Matthieu Grondin

I will be presenting in French, for those who might need to use an earpiece.

Mr. Chair, Vice-Chairs, distinguished members of the committee, my name is Paul-Matthieu Grondin and I am the Batônnier du Québec.

As the Chair has said, I am accompanied by Pascal Lévesque, who is the president of our Criminal Law Committee, an advisory committee, and Nicolas Le Grand Alary, who is a lawyer in the Secretariat of the Order and Legal Affairs.

We thank you for the invitation.

The Barreau du Québec is testifying before you today on Bill C-75 with great interest.

As a professional order, the Barreau du Québec's mission is to ensure the protection of the public. The Barreau is impelled to demonstrate this mission because of the significant amendments, both to criminal procedure and the administration of criminal justice in Canada.

With that said, we are grateful to you for inviting the Barreau to share with you its position on the subjects that follow.

First, the Barreau reiterates its opposition to minimum terms of imprisonment, except for the most serious cases, such as murder. Minimum sentences remove the flexibility in properly applying the principle of proportional sentencing from those in the front line, meaning prosecutors, defence counsel and trial judges. Consequently, the Barreau would have liked to see measures on mandatory minimum prison sentences in this bill.

Imposing minimum punishments may, in the short term, provide some sense of security for the public. In the long term, however, these measures are counterproductive for the justice system. Prosecutors lose an incentive to bring an accused to plead guilty when the circumstances surrounding the commission of an offence justify a punishment that would be under the mandatory minimum. Conversely, when the prosecution asks for a sentence in cases where it would be justified to impose slightly more than the minimum sentence, the courts tend, in those cases, to keep to the minimum sentence.

The bill would have been a good opportunity to abandon those types of punishments, which do not promote an efficient and flexible administration of the criminal justice system. Unfortunately, we acknowledge that we will have to wait for next time.

The Barreau du Québec believes that it is urgent for the government to amend the Criminal Code to give courts the residual discretionary power to not impose a mandatory minimum punishment.

But we note the introduction of two bills that seek to give this discretion to the courts. These are Bill S-251, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (independence of the judiciary) and to make related amendments and Bill C-407, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (sentencing). The measures in these bills could be included in Bill C-75 to address the issue of mandatory minimum punishments.

Persons before the court have the right to this constitutional protection. In addition, each accused or each party would no longer have to bear the heavy burden of a constitutional challenge right up to the Supreme Court.

Mandatory minimum punishments can be profoundly unfair in some cases. This is because the only possible penalty is imprisonment, while sometimes other solutions may encourage rehabilitation and thus reduce the risk of reoffending. Judges must be trusted to apply the law in a fair and equitable manner, ensuring that sentences are proportionate to the seriousness of the offence and the degree of responsibility of the offender.

Our second subject is the removal of the preliminary inquiry. The bill proposes to restrict preliminary inquiries to offences punishable by life imprisonment. It also strengthens the power of justices to limit the issues explored to specific matters and restrict the number of witnesses who may be heard.

The Barreau du Québec opposes this amendment. By limiting the use of preliminary inquiries, some argue that we can speed up the judicial process and thus reduce delays. We believe that limiting preliminary inquiries in this way would be ineffective or even counterproductive.

It is important to realize that, according to Statistics Canada, only 3% of eligible cases were the subject of a preliminary inquiry. Of the cases that caused delays beyond the thresholds established by the Cody and Jordan decisions, only 7% included a preliminary inquiry. Apart from anecdotal events, there is no evidence to conclude that preliminary inquiries create undue delays in the justice system, or the need to amend the current rules.

It is also important to mention that, in some cases, preliminary inquiries can test the strength of each party's position. This encourages the settlement of cases, thus avoiding trials on the merits and contributing to the reduction of delays. For example, evidence of an offence may be based on proof by testimony. A preliminary inquiry may be of benefit to both the accused and the prosecution, as they may be able to assess the credibility of those witnesses. This may encourage one or other of the parties to want to settle the matter by pleading guilty or by withdrawing the charges.

We are aware that some may abuse this step and thus unduly lengthen procedures. However, the Barreau du Québec wishes to point out that judges already have many powers of case management. The Supreme Court has invited them to use those powers time and time again. They must be used to define the scope of the inquiry and prevent abuse. Otherwise, we risk abandoning a stage of the criminal proceeding that remains relevant to the search for more efficient justice.

In addition, the Barreau du Québec is proposing an additional measure. It is all well and good to point out problems, but sometimes, we must also talk about solutions. This additional measure involves adding to the Criminal Code the possibility, with the consent of the accused, of replacing preliminary inquiries with our-of-court questioning. Pilot projects in this area have been set up in several judicial districts in Quebec and have proven their worth. This means not having to deal with the cumbersome legal system. Codifying these practices will allow them to extend across Canada, help to reduce delays in criminal practice and improve the efficiency of the justice system.

I will now deal with the elimination of peremptory challenges in jury selection.

The bill abolishes the peremptory challenging of jurors. This measure appears to be inspired by a highly publicized trial in Saskatchewan, where the jury selected did not reflect the diversity of the community where the trail was being held.

The Barreau du Québec considers that the measure proposes in the bill misses the mark. Of course, we find it deplorable that—as sometimes occurs—some lawyers use peremptory requests as a tactic to systematically disqualify prospective jurors for discriminatory reasons such as race or ethnicity.

However, we consider that simply abolishing peremptory challenges is not the answer. Peremptory challenges are always useful for litigants who are familiar with jury trials. Here is why. Lawyers can perceive, through the appearance, the words and the non-verbal language of prospective jurors, that they will not have the capacity to listen sufficiently objectively to the evidence to be presented and to make an impartial judgment on that evidence. They also ensure that the accused accepts the legitimacy of the jury and, by extension, the verdict and the sentence that will be pronounced. It is also important to mention that peremptory challenges are often made with the consent of both parties. That is important to keep in mind.

The Barreau de Québec agrees, however, that the composition of jurors must reflect the diversity of Canadian society. We therefore propose that the Criminal Code be amended so that one party or the other may request the judge to steer the composition of the jury when one party appears to be making peremptory challenges in bad faith, or when the jury, for other reasons, is not representative of the community. By holding a hearing to that effect, could appoint jurors to ensure that some members come from diverse backgrounds. Once again, I feel that it is important to mention that, when peremptory challenges are used, the vast majority of lawyers use them in good faith.

I will now talk about the impacts of the amendments to the Superior Court of Appeal.

The Barreau du Québec is afraid that significantly increasing the number of hybrid cases and imposing a one-year limitation period on summary conviction offences may have potential impacts on appeals in Superior Court.

We therefore want to make sure that there will be more resources for superior courts so that they will be able to handle the increased volume of cases without increasing the delays that we actually want to reduce. But I feel that it is important to emphasize that we are in general agreement with increasing the number of hybrid cases. That is a very good thing.

As for replacing some of the terms in the constitutive provisions of offences, we note that, for a number of offences, the adverb “wilfully” or the expression “with intent to” have been replaced by “knowingly”. We question the scope of these changes.

Is this a simple exercise in semantics, as in R. v. Sault Ste. Marie, which uses “wilfully” and “knowingly” as synonyms? Or is rather a desire to change these offences so that they go from specific intent offences to general offences?

The change in wording suggests that the intent is to change the applicable criteria, since, as the Supreme Court has stated, “the legislator does not speak for nothing.” The amendments are therefore likely to cause both difficulties in interpretation and disputes.

I will now address the proposal to permit only prosecutors from filing charges.

In addition to what is provided for in the bill, the Barreau du Québec recommends that charges for Criminal Code offences should be filed only by prosecutors. It is often the case that charges are dropped for lack of evidence or because of exculpatory evidence brought to the attention of the authorities. In addition, charges may be laid despite their technical or unimportant nature, despite the fact that it may not be appropriate to do so in the interests of justice. To reduce this risk, British Columbia, New Brunswick and Quebec have chosen to grant the power to lay charges to prosecutors only.

In Quebec, this measure is all the more effective because prosecutors have discretionary power, when circumstances warrant, to apply an alternative, such as to handle the case non-judicially, or with alternative measures, when a person admits responsibility.

So pre-charge screening by prosecutors reduces delays by unclogging the system of some of the cases that can be handled alternatively without harming the public interest, or that would likely would not have been successful at trial. As the Supreme Court of Canada stated in R. v. Sciascia, this practice assists the extremely overburdened justice system.

With the agreement of the provinces and territories, since we are dealing with the administration of justice, this rule should be enshrined in legislation to standardize the practice across Canada. At very least, it should encourage the use of pre-charge screening, as does subsection 23(1) of the Youth Criminal Justice Act.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, that is an overview of the principal issues that the Barreau du Québec wanted to discuss with you as part of the consultations on Bill C-75. The brief we have submitted to you contains more detailed explanations of the various issues we have just presented. The brief is also available on the Barreau's website. We hope that our presentation will provide you with food for thought.

In our reflections, we have deliberately highlighted the parts of the bill that we would like to be amended. But I would still like to point out that the bill contains a lot of good things. However, to channel the discussion and to use our time effectively, we have focused our thoughts on the places where we believe that amendments should be made.

We are now able to answer your questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much.

Your brief clearly specifies the parts of the bill that you support.

Mr. Cooper, you may start.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

Mr. Grondin, you touched upon preliminary inquiries. You noted that the percentage of cases involving preliminary inquiries is only around 3%. In other words, it's a very small piece of the larger criminal justice system in terms of court time. You went on to suggest that there isn't evidence that preliminary inquiries are part of the problem in terms of backlog.

I agree with you, but would you agree that by limiting the scope of preliminary inquiries, rather than reducing delays, we may in fact cause an increase? One of the concerns that has been cited, for example, is regarding the discovery process with respect to motions before trial. With the virtual elimination of most preliminary inquiries, that's now going to be pushed over into trial, which could result in trial delays.

4:50 p.m.

Bâtonnier du Québec, Barreau du Québec

Paul-Matthieu Grondin

You ask a very good question. Clearly, we asked ourselves that question too: if only 3% of cases have preliminary inquiries, why not eliminate them?

What we have to recognize is that preliminary inquiries have a positive side, in that they often encourage settlements. In addition, no empirical study allows us to say that certain measures would reduce the number to 2%, or to any percentage. Something else really enters into this equation. Keeping preliminary inquiries often encourages a settlement earlier in the process. To what extent is that the case? Quite honestly, it is difficult for us to say.

Whatever the case, with preliminary inquiries, we wanted to warn you to be careful. We suggest not throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

I'd like to ask you about the position of the Quebec bar on routine police evidence. Perhaps you'd like to comment on that.

4:50 p.m.

President, Criminal Law Committee, Barreau du Québec

Pascal Lévesque

As for routine police evidence, Mr. Cooper, we understand the desire to make police work easier. But when our committee considered the notion of routine police evidence, we were of the opinion that it could lead to confusion as to what is being requested and what that implies. The people around the table who were looking at this from the point of defence counsel said on a number of occasions that there could be endless debates. The prosecution could say that something is quite routine and there is no problem. But this goes against the rule requiring witnesses whose testimony relies on their own documents to come to testify with those documents. It is not enough to enter a document into evidence, because a document cannot be cross-examined.

Our committee felt that defence counsel would certainly perceive things differently and that they would tend to limit the interpretation of what constitutes routine evidence. We also felt that courts might well wonder what the routine evidence includes, and that there would be an affront to the basic principle that those who come up with the documents should be present to testify about them.

One might also wonder what is kept as routine evidence. For example, in a traffic stop, when a person is given a breathalyzer test, is the way of dealing with that person routine evidence? During a police operation, what is routine evidence for the officers? They have to come and testify.

We understand the intent behind this, to facilitate the work of police officers, who often have to appear in court. We want to make their task easier and make justice more efficient. On the other hand, that may cause a risk.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

But it seems to me, Mr. Lévesque, that this is a solution in search of a problem that doesn't exist. As much as it will in fact create a new hurdle in terms of requiring seeking leave, when I look at the factors that the court would consider, it would include such things as the nature of the proceeding, the extent to which evidence is central or peripheral, whether and the extent to which that evidence is expected to be contested, the accused’s right to make full answer and defence, and so on. It seems like there could be a whole lot of litigation involved in sorting that out.

4:50 p.m.

President, Criminal Law Committee, Barreau du Québec

Pascal Lévesque

That might happen. If I look at it from the other side, someone could also say that defence counsel will not do that systematically for each case. Some basic information from the officer will probably still be considered. However, you know as well as I do that only a very small number of cases involve major legal debate, and they are the ones likely to clog the system.

We also wonder why we are only talking about routine police evidence. Could this not involve an accountant, for example, an expert like that, a person in another field?

It is difficult for us to say now how this provision will play out if Parliament decides to adopt it and bring it into effect. We do not know how it will be used. However, we suspect that, in certain cases, the prosecution will have its idea on what constitutes routine evidence and the defence will have its idea, and they will not necessarily be in agreement.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you, Mr. Cooper.

Mr. Boissonnault, you have the floor.