Evidence of meeting #104 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was bail.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard
Paulette Corriveau  Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Policy Sector, Department of Justice
Carole Morency  Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Policy Sector, Department of Justice
Shannon Davis-Ermuth  Legal Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Policy Sector, Department of Justice
Matthew Taylor  Acting Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Policy Sector, Department of Justice
Arif Virani  Parkdale—High Park, Lib.
Don Beardall  General Counsel, Drug, National Security and Northern Prosecutions Branch, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions
Paul-Matthieu Grondin  Bâtonnier du Québec, Barreau du Québec
Pascal Lévesque  President, Criminal Law Committee, Barreau du Québec
Nicolas Le Grand Alary  Laywer, Secretariat of the Order and Legal Affairs, Barreau du Québec
Paul Doroshenko  Barrister and Solicitor, Acumen Law Corporation
Kyla Lee  Barrister and Solicitor, Acumen Law Corporation
Abby Deshman  Director, Criminal Justice Program, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Suzanne Clément  Advisor, Law Society of Ontario
Jonathan Rudin  Program Director, Aboriginal Legal Services
Malcolm Mercer  Treasurer and President, Law Society of Ontario
Ronald Rosenes  Community Health Advocate and Consultant, As an Individual

5:20 p.m.

President, Criminal Law Committee, Barreau du Québec

Pascal Lévesque

Based on his experience and instinct, a lawyer may not want a certain juror, without however being able to identify the problem or being able to explain exactly why to the judge. Sometimes, it is something in the person's body language, or the way in which he or she answers or behaves that tells him that that person will not have the necessary attention span to follow the upcoming jury trial. That is why we use peremptory challenges.

It may happen that later, the lawyer can articulate the reason why he or she used the peremptory challenge. That said, jury selection often proceeds quite quickly, and that is one of the reasons why the peremptory challenge is useful to attorneys, especially those who only practice in the context of jury trials.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

I don't know if you watch this in French, but there's a new televison program called Bull, in which one person is responsible for a group who chooses jury members. In this program, the perception is that certain people will not be sympathetic to the cause, for instance of women; or, some people don't like the colour red, and for that reason they are not wanted on a jury.

Do such reasons really exist in practice, or do defence lawyers provide much more narrow and objective reasons to refuse potential jury members?

5:20 p.m.

President, Criminal Law Committee, Barreau du Québec

Pascal Lévesque

The United States is very advanced when it comes to the study of potential jurors. In Canada, we are not there yet. The image of the law that is presented by popular culture often comes from the United States. But there are nuances when it comes to the law in Canada.

You may think that people of a certain age will be less receptive to a particular type of case, for instance, but it's often a matter of instinct. The decision is made rapidly. There is no advanced analysis or sociological study from a university sociology department that will determine that a given candidate will be more receptive. No. Normally, the lawyer listens to his instinct.

Take the example of a person who told the judge that he could without any issue perform this task, but who is looking at his feet and speaking in a very low and grumpy voice. That person may not really want to be there.

5:20 p.m.

Laywer, Secretariat of the Order and Legal Affairs, Barreau du Québec

Nicolas Le Grand Alary

Regarding the program you are referring to, I would say that a large number of the examples seen there are inspired by what is done in civil cases in the United States. In Quebec and Canada, there are very few juries in civil matters, and in criminal matters, there are some quite specific guidelines for jurors, and so the American examples likely apply less. You could summarize by saying that it is in large measure the lawyer or prosecutor's instinct that is the determining factor. Mr. Lévesque was talking about a person who looks at his feet while talking. That is the sort of factor that is taken into account.

As for peremptory challenges, a jury trial may be an imperfect process. Non-lawyers will have to decide on the substance of a case, on a charge that may determine a person's freedom, and that is why it is important to ensure that the accused and society accept the legitimacy of the jury and of the ultimate verdict.

5:25 p.m.

Bâtonnier du Québec, Barreau du Québec

Paul-Matthieu Grondin

For greater clarity, I would say that TV programs or series about lawyers such as the series Suits very rarely represent the reality of the practice. I understand why you would choose an example from a program of that type, but the fact remains that we often have to fight against the image presented by the arts and literature.

I thank you for the question, sir.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

I simply wanted to raise this issue, because, in my opinion, people have a bad impression of peremptory challenges because of that.

I want to thank all of you. This was very interesting. I think we were all very pleased to read your brief and listen to your testimony.

Thank you very much.

5:25 p.m.

Bâtonnier du Québec, Barreau du Québec

Paul-Matthieu Grondin

Thank you very much.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

I'm going to do a brief recess while we ask the next panel to please come forward.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

We will reconvene our hearing on Bill C-75.

We will now move to Acumen Law Corporation, our next witness, represented by Mr. Paul Doroshenko and Ms. Kyla Lee. The Canadian Civil Liberties Association is represented by Ms. Abby Deshman, the director of the criminal justice program.

Welcome, everyone.

I know this panel may have to catch a flight right after this, so I want to let it start as soon as possible. I'll turn the floor over to Acumen Law.

5:30 p.m.

Paul Doroshenko Barrister and Solicitor, Acumen Law Corporation

Good afternoon. Thank you very much for permitting us to testify at this panel. My name is Paul Doroshenko. I'm a criminal defence lawyer in Vancouver. Kyla Lee is my colleague and is probably the busiest impaired driving lawyer in British Columbia, and the head of the Canadian Impaired Driving Lawyers Association.

There are three things we are in a position to speak to today and that we would like to give evidence about. The first is the change in the onus for bail in circumstances of individuals who are charged with domestic assaults. The second is the change to the limitation period to lay a charge with respect to summary offences from six months to one year. The third, which we've already heard is quite contentious, is the matter of police officers providing evidence by way of affidavits. This is a significant concern for us, because when we look at it, as far as we're concerned, it appears that the police can basically put their whole case in by way of affidavit.

If you take a look at the thing that's already been mentioned, routine police evidence, there is a definition of that that's supposed to guide a judge and, I guess, prosecutors and defence lawyers, with respect to making those applications and putting things in by way of affidavit. If you look at what is actually listed in there as routine police evidence, it is the entirety of a police investigation: collection of evidence and observations of the police officers. That's what happens in most summary offence investigations. If you're dealing with, for example, an impaired driving case, it's routine police evidence for a police officer to pull somebody over and make an ASD demand. It's routine police evidence for a police officer to get a fail on an ASD roadside breath tester. It's routine police evidence to make observations of evidence about a person's status, such as whether or not their speech is slurred. This is all routine police evidence.

My particular concern is that putting in evidence in this way is going to lead to wrongful prosecutions, particularly in cases where people are self-represented accused and they don't know about this whole procedure to try to make an application to courts to oppose the Crown's application to rely on affidavit evidence. From a defence lawyer's perspective, obviously this is something that we're going to challenge, but since I read this section I've been trying to think of a single case in my career—and this is 18 or 19 years—in which a police officer has testified in a trial and I did not have questions for that police officer on the basis of their testimony. I'm trying to think of a case in which routine police evidence is going to arise in such a circumstance that it's not going to be contentious in any way or not going to build on, in some manner or another, the case that I want to use for the defence of my client.

Really what it comes down to—here's one of the fundamental problems with it—is that we have to put our client's argument to the court. We have to put our version of events to the witnesses who are presented in court. So if the Crown shows up and they proceed by way of this affidavit only, how do we put our version of events to that person? How does the judge make a finding of fact? How do they assess credibility in circumstances where all they have is an affidavit of a police officer? Well, there are two different ways they can go. As a judge, they can say they're just going to accept everything that police officers put in this affidavit, which, I can tell you, I don't think is going to happen. The other is that they're just going to say, well, okay, somebody else is testifying that something didn't happen that way. The police officer hasn't been there to testify. There's been no cross-examination or testing of that evidence, so ultimately, they're just going to accept the evidence that they've heard from the people who are giving evidence that contradicts what the police officer has in that affidavit.

This is something that we've already seen in British Columbia with respect to the immediate roadside prohibition scheme, and that's something that Ms. Lee deals with all the time.

Do you want to go ahead?

5:35 p.m.

Kyla Lee Barrister and Solicitor, Acumen Law Corporation

Yes.

In British Columbia, we've seen the erosion of cross-examination through our immediate roadside prohibition scheme. I have personally dealt with cases in the Supreme Court of British Columbia on two occasions where police testimony by affidavit, through that mechanism, has led to findings of a superior court where an officer either has been providing evidently false evidence or has committed apparent perjury—interestingly, the same officer in both cases.

I've also had the opportunity to cross-examine officers outside the immediate roadside prohibition context on the affidavit of evidence that they've submitted in immediate roadside prohibition cases for charges that arise collateral to the immediate roadside prohibition, namely, “driving while prohibited” cases. In those cases, when confronted with things that would constitute evidently false and apparent perjury in the police evidence, the police witnesses have realized the error of their ways only through my cross-examination, and sweeping changes to police practice in filing this affidavit evidence have been made as a result of the cross-examination that occurred. If you eliminate cross-examination, you eliminate the opportunity for police to learn that what they are doing doesn't meet the standard of truthfulness that's required of them.

In our brief—and I appreciate this committee only got it this afternoon and probably many of you haven't had the opportunity—

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Ms. Lee, can I ask you to slow it down a bit? The interpreters are having trouble.

5:35 p.m.

Barrister and Solicitor, Acumen Law Corporation

Kyla Lee

Yes. I apologize.

5:35 p.m.

Barrister and Solicitor, Acumen Law Corporation

Paul Doroshenko

Ms. Lee conducts these hearings over the phone. They're 30-minute hearings and she has to speak very quickly.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Of course.

5:35 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

5:35 p.m.

Barrister and Solicitor, Acumen Law Corporation

Paul Doroshenko

She has become accustomed to basically making her argument very rapidly. Both of us have to do that.

5:35 p.m.

Barrister and Solicitor, Acumen Law Corporation

Kyla Lee

In our brief, I included a quote from the Supreme Court of Canada's decision in Innisfil Township v. Vespra Township about the importance of cross-examination. It's on page 9 of our brief.

It refers to the fact that “the adversarial system, founded on cross-examination and the right to meet the case being made against the litigant, civil or criminal, is the procedural substructure upon which the common law itself has been built”. The court goes on to say, “For two centuries past, the policy of the Anglo-American system of evidence has been to regard the necessity of testing by cross-examination as a vital feature of the law.” This has to remain a vital feature of our justice system.

The mechanism being proposed in Bill C-75 to deal with the testimony of police through affidavit fails to even set up a system by which you can determine whether cross-examination is necessary. It identifies factors to be considered, but it puts no time limits on notice and whether that's going to come on the day of trial, the day before trial, responding to that notice, or when applications for cross-examination are to be heard. Whose application is it? Is it the Crown's application to not have the officer testify or the defence application to have the officer testify? None of that is made clear. At the very least, if the ability, the right, of cross-examination in a criminal trial is going to take place, very clear guidelines need to be set out in the legislation for when that can be avoided so that defence lawyers know what is going on.

The last point I'll make very briefly is with respect to the reversal of the onus in these bail hearings involving spousal assaults. I think this bill neglects the impact that's going to have on families, and not only in separating people from their children and the negative impact that will have on those familial relationships. It also neglects the impact that it will have on the reporting of domestic abuse. We've seen similar circumstances in the United States, in incidents cited in the brief, where the jailing of domestic offenders has led to under-reporting because people are concerned about losing the primary source of income or the mother or father to their children as a result of jailing individuals. The impact on families cannot be understated.

Both my colleague and I welcome any questions this committee has.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much.

Let's go to the Canadian Civil Liberties Association.

5:40 p.m.

Abby Deshman Director, Criminal Justice Program, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

Thank you very much for the opportunity to appear before you today. This is a lengthy bill, so in the interest of time I will dispense with the intros to my organization and myself.

We support the goals of Bill C-75 and applaud the government for taking steps to address many issues in the justice system that are crying out for reform. We particularly welcome the attention to the deluge of administration of justice offences that are appearing before our criminal courts; to our bail system, which is overly risk-averse, detaining and releasing too many people on too many restrictive conditions; as well as to racial discrimination in the jury system and the deep unfairness of the mandatory victim surcharge. In our view, reform in many of these areas, as well as in others, is overdue.

My submissions today will focus on the bail and administration of justice offences, just because I think this is an area where you may not hear as much from various witnesses. We do support the goal of these amendments, but we think they don't go far enough. A lot of the amendments' proposed changes codify existing law. Lawyers and judges and justices of the peace should know what the existing law is. It's useful to write that down in statute, but really, to make serious changes to our bail system and how that's operating, we think more fundamental reforms are necessary. I'll go over a number of those in my proposed submissions.

Before getting there, though, I do want to outline three areas of this bill that we have deep concerns about: the treatment of police evidence, the proposed new maximum sentences for summary offences, and the restrictions on the availability of preliminary inquiries. I'll be very brief, but I'm happy to take questions on these.

First, clauses 278 and 294, which streamline the admission of police testimony, are, in our opinion, at best superfluous. There are already provisions in the Criminal Code that allow for agreed statements of facts to be put before the court. At worst, they are a serious affront to the presumption of innocence and the right to a fair trial. They should be removed in their entirety.

Second, with regard to increasing maximum sentences for summary offences from six months to two years less a day, I do not believe the government intended to increase the severity of penalties available in the Criminal Code. We're very concerned that the collateral impacts of this sentencing change will do just that. There are serious immigration consequences that come with increasing maximum sentences. Due to the definition of “serious criminality” in the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, this would drastically increase the legal jeopardy for people charged with summary conviction offences. It also means that a whole new class of individuals may be inadmissible to the United States based only on the maximum sentence. We do not think these sentencing changes should go forward without complementary adjustments to at least the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act.

Finally, we've looked at the evidence in favour of eliminating preliminary inquiries, and in our view it's mixed. There are some who say it will have an impact. The most recent published academic study said there would be no impact to efficiency in the criminal justice system by eliminating preliminary inquiries. We've listened to our experts in the defence bar. We've listened to the submissions of the Criminal Lawyers' Association. We are concerned about the impacts on wrongful convictions and failed trial processes for eliminating this particular portion of the justice system. It operates differently in different provinces, so the impact will be different depending on where people are practising. We just don't believe that the evidence of the benefit is worth the risk to the trial process.

Having said that, I'll use the rest of my time for the bail and administration of justice offences. I have eight specific amendments, some of which I'll deal with only briefly, that we think will have a larger impact on bringing back fairness, presumption of innocence, and reasonable bail in Canada.

First, we'd urge a greater systemization of the language in this bill. The law is quite clear that restrictive forms of release and conditions may only be imposed when they are necessary to address the statutory grounds of detention. But if we look, for example, at the police provisions on when conditions may be applied by police in this bill, we see that police can apply conditions “to prevent the continuation or repetition of the offence or the commission of another offence”. That is much, much broader than the existing statutory grounds for detention. I would hope it was not the intent to broaden when police can impose conditions when releasing an accused. That is a very, very broad power to impose restrictive conditions.

There are other instances in this bill where it says conditions may be imposed when it is desirable. That type of language needs to be systematically brought into line with charter jurisprudence and the Supreme Court of Canada's holdings on when conditions are legal, in light of the charter right to reasonable bail.

We also think that significant enhancements can be made by addressing the procedure of bail hearings. In Ontario, for example, it is routine for there to be an assumption that a surety is required, and when defence counsel go into a contested bail hearing, they frequently feel the need to call a potential surety before they know what the appropriate form of release is, even when it's a Crown onus, because if they don't call a surety and the assumption is that a surety is required, then their client will be detained.

There was a decision from February, the Tunney decision, that put the Supreme Court's decision in Antic into practice and said that a bifurcated bail procedure is necessary in our courts in order to maintain the latter principle on bail. This means that before defence is required to call a surety, the justice must rule on what form of release is required. In Crown-onus situations, the Crown actually has to come and prove that it does need a surety for this person to be released, and only then is the accused required to bring, or it is suggested that the accused bring, evidence about what surety is appropriate.

This is a big change for Ontario bail courts. The change is slowly making its way across the province, but change is difficult, especially in the bail arena. This committee has an incredible opportunity to significantly strengthen that practice and make real changes, particularly for Ontario, in terms of how bail is adjudicated.

Third, I would urge this committee to address circumstances in which individuals are likely to be held in pretrial detention for longer than they would be convicted if they were sentenced. It is not uncommon for a person in pretrial detention to face a choice. They can sit there. They can wait for their trial. They can wait for a contested bail hearing, or they can plead guilty and they can be released sooner. That's a situation that nobody should have to face. Our pretrial process should not be more punitive than our sentencing structure. Right now there are no provisions in the Criminal Code to address this situation. There are submissions from Professor Marie-Eve Sylvestre, who suggests that we need to add a provision saying that if a person is likely to be sentenced to a certain amount of time, they shouldn't spend more time in pretrial detention than they would receive on a sentence.

We have two suggested amendments—and I do have a written brief, which I'll circulate after—that we think would really address the situation and increase the fairness for those individuals.

Fourth are the secondary grounds of detention. These are the grounds of detention most frequently associated with public safety. In Morales, the Supreme Court looked at the right to reasonable bail and said that secondary grounds of detention have to be interpreted narrowly in order for charter rights to be upheld. It's not any risk to public safety. It's not any risk that a person will commit a criminal offence that will justify keeping somebody in detention or imposing restrictive conditions. It has to be a substantial risk that a person will commit another offence, and a substantial risk that this will impact public safety or the safety of an individual.

The secondary grounds, however, are interpreted quite liberally when in bail court, so there is a temptation—and I think we see this, actually, in the text of this bill, in the police release conditions— to say that any risk that someone will go out and commit another offence is a justification for the imposition of restrictive releases or restrictive conditions. We think that language can be tightened in the Criminal Code to more accurately reflect the charter as well as the Supreme Court's holdings on this matter, and we have some suggested language for that.

I'll go through the rest briefly. We think expanded scope for bail reviews would be extremely helpful. Right now there's a relatively restricted scope for defence to challenge bail decisions. With regard to the reverse onuses in the Criminal Code, many have suggested that those reverse onuses should be repealed. This bill does not do that. It introduces a new one that is quite problematic from our perspective. We'd like to see increased flexibility to where an accused can be remanded after the first appearance. It would just give the provinces more flexibility when dealing with people from remote communities.

We'd like to ensure that a previous conviction is not an elevated factor in the consideration of bail by removing proposed paragraph 515(3)(b), which enumerates specifically that a previous conviction must be considered upon a bail application as one of only two factors that are singled out.

I'll leave my submissions there. We'll circulate my written brief; I realize these were detailed.

I'd also be happy to answer questions on the administration of justice parallel procedure, which I didn't get to but we have some significant concerns about.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much to the witnesses for their testimony.

Mr. Cooper.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses. I have not had the benefit of reviewing your brief but look forward to doing so.

I want to touch upon routine police evidence. Ms. Deshman, you noted that it goes to the right of cross-examination. It goes to the heart of trial fairness. The Minister of Justice has stated that in her view this change is charter compliant. Do you agree?

5:50 p.m.

Director, Criminal Justice Program, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

Abby Deshman

No. I've read the government's charter statement. It's obviously not a very detailed or fulsome explanation of how they believe this comports with the charter. The factors they point to, for example, on clause 294, are that an accused would have had an opportunity to be present during previous cross-examinations on preliminary inquiries or voir dires. Those are two processes that are fundamentally different from a trial on the merits of a charge.

To cross-examine on a voir dire, you're going to be focused on a very narrow set of issues. That may be a charter violation or a search-and-seizure issue, or it may be about the voluntariness of a statement. Police testimony on that point is going to be relevant to a wide range of issues at trial that were not at all present or relevant at a voir dire. Similarly, a preliminary inquiry is designed for a specific purpose. It does not test the credibility of the Crown's witnesses.

Credibility is frequently going to be an issue at trial. We should not think that cross-examination at these distinct pretrial procedures is at all relevant to cross-examination at trial. Because we already have a mechanism to admit agreed statements of fact, the only time I can imagine that a procedure like this would be used is where the defence does not agree that these facts are uncontroversial and does want to cross-examine, in which case I think it is actually a serious limitation on charter rights.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Not only a serious limitation on charter rights, but the purported objective of the bill is to increase efficiencies and reduce delays.

Mr. Doroshenko, you've noted that in terms of the definition of what constitutes “routine” police evidence, it's very broad in scope, covering virtually almost anything.

You noted, Ms. Deshman, that when there isn't agreement with respect to something like an agreed statement of facts, you now could have this leave requirement before the court.

Then, when you go through the bill and look at all the different factors that are to be litigated, how in the world does that increase efficiencies?

5:50 p.m.

Director, Criminal Justice Program, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

Abby Deshman

I think it's a very good question. I haven't seen any evidence that contested police evidence is unduly delaying trials.

As I've noted, we already have a process, and I do think that the breadth of routine police evidence and the vagueness of these provisions will lead to more litigation and be more time-consuming in the trial process.