Evidence of meeting #105 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was crown.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Philip J. Star  Criminal Defence Lawyer, Pink Star Barro, As an Individual
Michael Lacy  President, Criminal Lawyers' Association
David Field  President and Chief Executive Officer, Legal Aid Ontario
Marcus Pratt  Director, Policy and Strategic Research, Legal Aid Ontario
Apple Newton-Smith  Vice-President, Criminal Lawyers' Association
Jillian Rogin  Assistant Professor, Association for Canadian Clinical Legal Education
Kara Gillies  Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform
Brent Kettles  Counsel, Crown Law Office - Civil, Ministry of the Attorney General of Ontario, As an Individual
Kent Roach  Prichard and Wilson Chair in Law and Public Policy, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Steven Blaney  Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, CPC
Arif Virani  Parkdale—High Park, Lib.
Solomon Friedman  Criminal Defence Lawyer, As an Individual
Vanessa MacDonnell  Associate Professor, Faculty of Law - Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
John Muise  Volunteer Director of Public Safety, Abuse Hurts
Daniel Topp  Barrister and Solicitor, As an Individual
Marion Overholt  Barrister and Solicitor and Executive Director, Community Legal Aid, Legal Assistance of Windsor

8:40 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

You'd obviously want that process to be continued, no matter what.

8:40 p.m.

Barrister and Solicitor and Executive Director, Community Legal Aid, Legal Assistance of Windsor

Marion Overholt

Yes. Part of the difficulty, as Mr. Topp said, is that we have seen changes over time in terms of when a certificate would be issued and when it would not. Behind our concern about the effectiveness of the criminal justice system is the availability of adequate funding for legal aid, which is really critical to that piece.

8:40 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

That goes to the question that I was going to follow up with. We have what we call the “gap” population, those who often don't qualify for legal aid but are too poor to pay for lawyers. That's the so-called gap population.

8:40 p.m.

Barrister and Solicitor and Executive Director, Community Legal Aid, Legal Assistance of Windsor

Marion Overholt

Absolutely.

8:40 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

I don't know what you would recommend we do for those people.

8:40 p.m.

Barrister and Solicitor and Executive Director, Community Legal Aid, Legal Assistance of Windsor

Marion Overholt

Part of what's happening in Ontario is that we're seeing, over a 10-year period, an increase in the financial eligibility of Legal Aid Ontario, recognizing that the income cut-offs are so low that we do have the gap. As that system is addressed and those income levels are increased, more people would qualify, but it is dependent on the continued adequate funding of legal aid to address those issues.

8:40 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

The second point you made, which was brought to our attention earlier today, was about the impact of what we're doing here on the immigration system. You made, I think, an excellent point that we may want to consider, if we have the jurisdiction to do it: making a consequential amendment to the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act. If you're eligible for a penalty of over six months in prison, that could render you inadmissible. That may not have been what the Government of Canada intended either in these circumstances.

Do I understand that your second point was that we ought to consider seeking an amendment to IRPA to address that?

8:40 p.m.

Barrister and Solicitor and Executive Director, Community Legal Aid, Legal Assistance of Windsor

Marion Overholt

Yes, because I think that when you look at that provision, it's talking about serious criminality. Just by changing the definition now of summary conviction, you are increasing the possibility that far more people who have been convicted of lesser offences and who receive a sentence of over six months are now considered to be an issue of serious criminality. That doesn't seem to be the intention of that section of the immigration act. They were looking at protection, really, and addressing people's ability to seek residency. That change needs to be implemented in the immigration act.

8:40 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

Thank you very much.

Do I have a minute or am I done?

8:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

You have exactly one minute left.

8:40 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

Mr. Muise, thank you for your testimony. Please boil down what you are actually recommending the committee do with respect to breach of the LTSO. What is your bottom line?

8:40 p.m.

Volunteer Director of Public Safety, Abuse Hurts

John Muise

Take it out of the list of hybridized offences. Subsection 753.3(1), or whatever it is—take that one out of the list of offences.

8:40 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

It should not be hybridized, period.

8:40 p.m.

Volunteer Director of Public Safety, Abuse Hurts

John Muise

Exactly.

8:40 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

It's too important. It's for very serious things. It should be left there. It should not be subject to hybridization.

8:45 p.m.

Volunteer Director of Public Safety, Abuse Hurts

John Muise

Correct. It should not force a Crown attorney to make the kind of decision that he or she might have to make. Do not include it in that long list.

8:45 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

I wanted to be clear. Thank you.

8:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much.

Mr. Ehsassi, go ahead.

September 18th, 2018 / 8:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll keep it short, given that it is getting late in the evening.

My first question is for Ms. Overholt, to follow up on the question Mr. Rankin was asking.

We heard from the Law Society of Ontario yesterday, which also had serious reservations about section 802.1. Most people might think that the Law Society objected because its mandate is to maintain its independence. As I understand it, you have a very different perspective on this issue. You're concerned about access to justice.

I'll use the expression Mr. Topp used, that there are little boxes that people fall outside of. Who are the people coming to your legal clinic? Are they mostly people who don't qualify for legal aid, as Mr. Rankin suggested? Who is the bulk of the clientele that comes to your clinic, for whom students do amazing work?

8:45 p.m.

Barrister and Solicitor and Executive Director, Community Legal Aid, Legal Assistance of Windsor

Marion Overholt

In terms of our criminal law, it is clients who are charged with summary conviction offences where the Crown is not seeking a jail term. They would not be eligible for a certificate. We're able to represent those clients and act on their behalf.

8:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Thank you.

Would you like to add anything to that, Mr. Topp, given that you also work with students?

8:45 p.m.

Barrister and Solicitor, As an Individual

Daniel Topp

I agree.

8:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

The second question is for Mr. Muise. Given your area of expertise and the nature of the clientele that you deal with, did you have any comments on the reverse onus provisions in this bill? Would they impact things?

8:45 p.m.

Volunteer Director of Public Safety, Abuse Hurts

John Muise

I requested to come to the committee. I wasn't contacted by the sponsor of the bill or by the Liberal Party. Normally, when that happens you'll get contacted. I write letters to the justice minister; I don't get responses. I didn't come here to go through the bill and say, "Hey, what do you think about this?"

There are things in the bill that are good. I came here to point out my objections, so that's what I've done.

8:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Fair enough. Thank you so much.

That's it for me.