Evidence of meeting #121 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was children.
A recording is available from Parliament.
6:15 p.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Ms. MacDonald and Mr. Fabricius, do you have any comments with respect to domestic abuse in how it's reported or how it's referenced within any divorce case as it goes through the courts? We'll start with Ms. MacDonald.
6:15 p.m.
Member, Canadian Branch, Leading Women for Shared Parenting
We find that, first of all, domestic violence in itself is a crime. I've been saying this for decades. It should be treated as such. It should be dealt with in criminal courts, where they have the resources to conduct a proper investigation, and not in family courts.
I can't remember the specific numbers offhand, but approximately 70% of domestic violence allegations that come up in the context of divorce are false. Even on the Kentucky survey that I spoke of, question number 10:
Do you generally agree or disagree with the following statement: It is not uncommon for a divorcing parent to make a false violence or abuse claim to gain an advantage in child custody cases?
6:15 p.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Ms. MacDonald, is part of your brief, the source of the numbers you're quoting?
6:15 p.m.
Member, Canadian Branch, Leading Women for Shared Parenting
No, I didn't get the poll.
6:15 p.m.
Member, Canadian Branch, Leading Women for Shared Parenting
Absolutely.
6:15 p.m.
Member, Canadian Branch, Leading Women for Shared Parenting
I didn't get it translated in time.
6:15 p.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Okay. That's completely fine as long as you send it over, because we like to reference all this stuff we quote.
6:15 p.m.
Member, Canadian Branch, Leading Women for Shared Parenting
Absolutely. I'd be happy to.
6:15 p.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Mr. Fabricius, do women tend to report domestic abuse or bring it up within their divorce cases, especially in instances where children are involved?
6:15 p.m.
Prof. William Fabricius
I can't tell you the rate in Canada or anywhere else, but of course it happens. I'm sure it's a minority of cases because most divorces are settled by the parents outside the court system. I know that's true in America, and I assume it's true in Canada. Perhaps 90% are decided by the parents maybe after consulting an attorney without going to court and without filing charges.
Clearly, domestic violence is a problem, but I can't tell you the rate of allegations of it. I do know that in Arizona there was a perception of a slight increase in rates of allegations of domestic violence and substance abuse and child abuse, but a very small indication, which we took as a good sign, in that our presumption of equal parenting time didn't suppress allegations of those things. If anything, there was a slight increase. From the data and the actual evidence I have, our judges, our attorneys statewide, mental health professionals and our conciliation court staff didn't see any evidence that the equal parenting laws suppressed those kinds of allegations.
6:20 p.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Ms. Bayes, do you have any comments on that? Do you believe that equal parenting would suppress, or not, domestic abuse matters within a home?
6:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Elizabeth Fry Society of Greater Vancouver
In the work that we do with the Ministry of Children and Family Development as it applies to supervised access, those do not appear to be and we've not been involved in any discovery of unfounded allegations. In my experience with those we work with, I take their complaints and the issues they raise to be legitimate. I think they're able to reasonably demonstrate that to us fairly easily in terms of what we see.
We see in our shelters older women who have no access to marital resources, single women whose children have grown, or younger women with children who, as well, are struggling just with the basic things of even entitlements to programs such as the child benefit.
6:20 p.m.
Liberal
6:20 p.m.
Liberal
6:20 p.m.
NDP
Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
My question is for Ms. Bayes.
I'm going to pick up on the family violence issue. Various studies show that the risk of serious family violence that can have lethal consequences is much higher among Canadian women of indigenous origin than among non-aboriginals. It is therefore essential that the bill take cultural differences into account in the fight against family violence.
Ms. Bayes, based on your organization's experience, do you think the bill should contain elements that enable you to provide assistance more specifically to Canadian women of aboriginal origin who must deal with family violence?
6:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Elizabeth Fry Society of Greater Vancouver
Yes. I will contextualize it by saying, in the last year and a half, the Elizabeth Fry Society has been doing a lot of work in northern B.C., where we see that the majority of reasons indigenous people are entering the criminal justice system have to do with domestic violence and the lack of resources that exist there, inclusive of inadequate housing, no shelters, no transition houses and even limited supervised access programs.
It's fair to say that resources have to be made available to support families and to enable them to move past. The obligation is to enable children to be as whole as possible in their relationship with both parents, and to enable parents to interact with children in a manner that's safe and puts the child's interests first.
6:20 p.m.
NDP
Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Your answer leads me directly to my next question.
We have heard from several associations and organizations like yours that take in, support and assist women experiencing divorce and family violence. There are several organizations of that kind in my riding.
We know that divorce and family violence are major factors in rendering women vulnerable, hence my sensitivity to the work you do in your organization.
What measures could we add to Bill C-78 to support all the associations that play a fundamental role in supporting families going through divorce?
6:25 p.m.
Executive Director, Elizabeth Fry Society of Greater Vancouver
The first thing in terms of resources to support children is to ensure that there are equitable resources available to women. That has not been our experience of what is provided. Women who have been victimized don't represent themselves well. They aren't articulate. They are angry. They are hostile. They are unpleasant to deal with, and rightly so, having been through a difficult experience.
What is needed is an opportunity for that woman to move past that, to do her best to be able to speak and articulate for herself and her child. What we see is that women are not given that opportunity to have space to recentre themselves in such a way that they are able to fully participate. In terms of resources, the place to resource it is to be able to provide that space. We see women often being pushed quickly to move through a process. I take that as a lack of training on the part of family counsellors who are involved in that.
Secondly, and I will speak unguardedly, part of the problem is that, in some ways, this is a piece of legislation that is available to people who are affluent. The cost of being able to use the benefits of this legislation are difficult if you have no money. As I said, over 50% of women, 55% of women, have an income of less than $30,000. That prohibits you from affording a lawyer to be able to represent yourself. That's really one of the barriers, so I'd like to see anything you are able to consider in terms of resourcing that to make it more accessible. Supreme Court fees are even difficult for women who represent themselves to be able to afford that.
Those are some of the barriers that get in the way of women being able to go back to court when they know there is a difference potentially in income or other factors that they believe should be considered in light of ensuring the child's interests. In terms of those fees, you do control that. The administration of justice is provincial, but I understand that's the one place where you have some access to address it.
6:25 p.m.
NDP
6:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Since you took virtually no time last time, I'm going to allow you some.
6:25 p.m.
NDP
Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
That's kind of you.
Ms. Bayes, you mentioned support. Another witness told us that federal support guidelines should be amended and we should have a framework or basic formula to increase the stability and predictability of support. However, representatives of the Barreau du Québec told us that, even though there's an equitable mechanism proportionate to the amount involved that is easy to understand and to implement, it's hard to apply in the case of a debtor who simply doesn't have the wherewithal to pay support.
One of the bill's purposes is to reduce poverty. What mechanism should we put in place regarding support, particularly for couples with very limited financial means?
6:25 p.m.
Executive Director, Elizabeth Fry Society of Greater Vancouver
As it applies to couples with very restricted incomes, the capacity for redress over time is important. I will give you the example of students who go through something. Over time, we see men's opportunity and assets increase, yet there isn't an opportunity then to go back, because those assets are taken to have been earned outside of the relationship.
In terms of being able to provide for the care and protection of that child, we would hold that the child should have access to the benefits afforded to the adult. Whoever you are, as a mother or a father, if your income and ability to support and be involved in advancing your child's life increases, your child should benefit from that.