Evidence of meeting #121 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was children.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gene Colman  Lawyer, Lawyers for Shared Parenting
Barbara Landau  Mediator, Arbitrator, Psychologist and Lawyer, Family Dispute Resolution Institute of Ontario
Melanie Del Rizzo  Chair, Family Law, Canadian Bar Association
Sarah Rauch  Chair, Child and Youth Law, Canadian Bar Association
Brian Ludmer  Advisory Counsel, Canadian Association for Equality
Michael Cooper  St. Albert—Edmonton, CPC
Martha McCarthy  Martha McCarthy & Company LLP, As an Individual
Daniel Melamed  Torkin Manes LLP, As an Individual
Orly Katz  Assistant to Counsel, B'nai Brith Canada
John Syrtash  Counsel, B'nai Brith Canada
Arif Virani  Parkdale—High Park, Lib.
William Fabricius  Associate Professor of Psychology, Department of Psychology, Arizona State University, As an Individual
Paulette MacDonald  Member, Canadian Branch, Leading Women for Shared Parenting
Shawn Bayes  Executive Director, Elizabeth Fry Society of Greater Vancouver

November 26th, 2018 / 4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

There's no interpretation, Mr. Chair.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

We're going to stop the timer.

What Madame Sansoucy was asking you was with respect to the amounts that you said were very important to put into the education and training and stuff like that. She was then starting to talk about cuts that had taken away from that and she hadn't quite got into the question.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

I'll continue by saying that all these settlement methods—mediators, psychological support and legal advice—represent additional costs that families must bear. I'd like to hear your comments on those recommendations.

How do we go about improving equal access to justice regardless of a person's financial position? What measures do you have in mind to enable all people, regardless of their financial situation, to be treated equally under the Divorce Act?

4:30 p.m.

Mediator, Arbitrator, Psychologist and Lawyer, Family Dispute Resolution Institute of Ontario

Dr. Barbara Landau

First of all, reinstating the family court clinics is the best way to do that. It's a wonderful way of doing it. They existed in Toronto, London, Kingston and I don't know if there were any elsewhere. These were wonderful opportunities. They were jointly funded across ministries that provided professional help, but had no cost to the families. You could have a sliding scale if you needed to.

The other thing is that there are court-based services now in Ontario, I think, Alberta, British Columbia, perhaps in Nova Scotia, and in Quebec that do provide publicly funded mediation services through the court system. They would have access to professionals who could come in for a period of time. The collaborative cases happen outside of court and they're privately funded.

Again, I'd be happy to talk about some public funding for that. They routinely have a team of professionals. They have lawyers, financial people and child experts, all of whom spend a portion of the time with the children. All of this is much more cost-effective than taking the amount of time and effort to get through a five-year trial.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

May I ask a final question?

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

You've already used up seven minutes. Can you make it very brief?

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Yes.

Ms. Rauch often mentioned the International Convention on the Rights of the Child. That isn't currently in the preamble. Should it be mentioned in the body of the bill?

4:30 p.m.

Chair, Child and Youth Law, Canadian Bar Association

Sarah Rauch

Yes. We believe it should be, as well as in the preamble.

4:30 p.m.

Mediator, Arbitrator, Psychologist and Lawyer, Family Dispute Resolution Institute of Ontario

Dr. Barbara Landau

It's in the Ontario legislation, under the criterion, the best interests of the child—I think it may be here too—that where it's reasonable, you should be looking at the children's views and preferences.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much.

Mr. Boissonnault.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First to the CBA. I have a few short snappers, and then I'm going to go for some substantive answers from some of your colleagues.

Is it true that, among the 36,000 members of your association, there are parents?

4:30 p.m.

Chair, Family Law, Canadian Bar Association

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

Is it true that, among the 36,000 members, some of those who are parents would have experienced divorce?

4:30 p.m.

Chair, Family Law, Canadian Bar Association

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

Is it your opinion, and do you sit here at this committee and represent the interests of lawyers or the interests of children?

4:30 p.m.

Chair, Family Law, Canadian Bar Association

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

Great.

4:30 p.m.

Chair, Family Law, Canadian Bar Association

Melanie Del Rizzo

In our view, we are here to represent the Canadian Bar Association, but the Canadian Bar Association's position advances the rights of children.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

Outstanding.

Would you agree with that, Ms. Rauch?

4:30 p.m.

Chair, Child and Youth Law, Canadian Bar Association

Sarah Rauch

Yes, I would, as a matter of law, not as a matter of interests of the lawyers but as a matter of advancing the clarity in the law.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

Thank you.

Dr. Landau, it's possible for us to do a Google poll or to have a Twitter poll or to send out a SurveyMonkey. I'm wondering if you can point to any statistically valid social science research that supports the principle of equal shared parenting in Canada, which we should be looking at to inform our decision-making here as members of the House of Commons.

4:30 p.m.

Mediator, Arbitrator, Psychologist and Lawyer, Family Dispute Resolution Institute of Ontario

Dr. Barbara Landau

I'm not aware of any valid poll that's been done that supports the assumption.

I don't see why it's necessary, because we're encouraging parents to come up co-operatively with what makes sense for them. The experience over the last 30 or 40 years has been that, as we move to more consensual processes outside of court, parents are increasingly sharing the parenting because they're not being encouraged to fight each other and they're not writing horrible affidavits about each other. They're meeting with a professional who's encouraging them to think about their children and to think about the harm.

If I can quickly just tell you, my key line that I give to parents as a mediator is to ask them to think about what story they want their children to tell their grandchildren about how they handled their separation. That tends to sober them down pretty quickly.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

That's very good.

I have a question for the CBA. Is it helpful, for the work that you're doing and for having more harmony in the system, that we're moving as a government on unified family courts, and that we've allocated funding for 39 more judges in that case?

4:35 p.m.

Chair, Family Law, Canadian Bar Association

Melanie Del Rizzo

Absolutely, that is extremely important. We've had resolutions on that from the CBA in the past, and we congratulate the government for moving ahead in that way.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

Dr. Landau, would you concur?