Evidence of meeting #129 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.
A video is available from Parliament.
2:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
—but on the issue of the words “government colleagues” in the motion, the words “government colleagues” essentially come from the doctrine itself and discussions with people in cabinet and the Prime Minister's Office and the attorney general. They're in all of the literature related to the doctrine. Those are words that are used with respect to where pressure may be applied and what is permitted or not permitted with respect to discussions between the attorney general and prosecutors, so the words in the motion are not the words Mr. Boissonnault previously used.
2:25 p.m.
Milton, CPC
Who are the government colleagues who called the three witnesses to determine that they were available?
2:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
I will again ask Mr. Boissonnault since I think it was his office that dealt with that.
2:25 p.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
What we're talking about here is people who normally appear before this committee. Colleagues working in the House leader's office have been able to work with these three proposed witnesses, and there is openness to appearing before our committee.
2:25 p.m.
Milton, CPC
Who in the House leader's office made the calls to the three witnesses who are available to attend?
2:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Are you trying to imply that there's something incorrect with the House leader's office? Your House leader's office is working with you right here. Somebody in the House leader's office called the witnesses. I don't know if Mr. Boissonnault has the exact name of the person. I don't believe he does.
2:25 p.m.
Milton, CPC
It took me and Mr. Cooper asking the question about 11 times before we got the answer, so forgive me if we are trying to play down as to who did it.
2:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
I don't think that we're at all trying to play down this, because there's nothing to hide. I think it's perfectly appropriate for the House leader's office to reach out on the committee's behalf. We work with the House leader's office all the time.
What we've avoided doing, given all of the comments from the Conservatives over the last few days about how our committee would not support any motion.... You're changing the narrative now. Before we were not going to support anything: we were not going to do it, we were not going to shed light on this. Now that we are, you are saying that it's because the PMO would drive us down. We deliberately didn't contact the PMO because you guys were saying that we were going to be driven down by them. I really do want to assert the independence of the members of this committee. I am very proud of that and I am very proud of my colleague on all sides, to be honest, in the committee deliberations for the last three and a half years.
I'm so sorry. We're still on the amendment. Ms. Raitt has spoken. Just so that everybody knows so they can get ready, we have Mr. Ehsassi, Mr. Boissonnault, Mr. McKinnon, Mr. Paul-Hus, Mr. Poilievre, Mr. Fortin and Ms. Khalid. That is the speakers list. Perhaps at that point we might want to consider the amendment, with Mr. Cullen having the last word on it, if that's okay with colleagues. Then we will move back to whatever happens after the amendment—whether other amendments, the main motion, or whatever—because we have a lot of speakers on the amendment, if that's okay with everybody.
Not hearing any objection to that for the moment, we're going to go to Mr. Ehsassi.
2:30 p.m.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I believe I'm one of the last members to speak today.
February 13th, 2019 / 2:35 p.m.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
Thank you for that.
I have to say, as I'm sure the other members are well aware, that there are many people who think this committee would be imperfect for the type of exercise we have before us. I was not one of them, but having listened to my colleagues opposite, I have to say that thought does give me some hesitation.
The reason for that is quite simple.
First of all, what we have heard from some of the members so far has been the cherry-picking of selective facts, putting them together and trying to create this impression that something untoward has definitely happened. The reality of the matter is that we have heard from our members on this side, and so far we have indicated that, from what we have seen, there is nothing to be concerned about. That is our personal opinion. However, that should not for a second be taken to mean that we don't understand that this is important, because the test is not whether we're concerned; the test is whether Canadians are concerned.
In good faith, members have come forward. You're pretending that we're trying to drag this out. We are doing the furthest thing from that. We have agreed to an emergency meeting to deal with this issue. That is actually unique.
Mr. Cullen continuously refers to this as something that is unique. Well, it is unique, because we understand full well what our responsibilities are. We have checked our partisan hats at the door. We understand, and we share with you, the concern that Canadians should come out of this exercise having a much better understanding of how things work. So I would appreciate it if the members would refrain from impugning our motives.
The process we have outlined here is quite clear. It's quite obvious that the motion we have presented demonstrates that we would like to join you in making sure that this exercise is beneficial for Canadians. I have heard too often so far people saying that we have left people off the witness list. Yes, that is very true, because, as you will see, the motion itself indicates that we are not suggesting for a second that the witnesses be limited to the three people who are named there. We want to work with you. We look forward to working with you.
In addition to that, I understand that Mr. Cullen has never appeared before this committee before. I understand that Mr. Poilievre has never been here. I understand that Ms. Raitt has never been here. I can assure you that every single meeting we have had to discuss witnesses has been in camera. I think if you check with Mr. Cooper, he will confirm that for you. That is the process we have followed in the past—
2:35 p.m.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
That is the process we have followed in the past, and we're quite comfortable doing that as well.
If you think we're trying to drag this out, I would point out that not only have we come to an emergency meeting, we have provided a date in our motion—for next week—to go over this, to hear your concerns, to share our concerns, and to make sure this is a fulsome exercise.
Another thing I've seen the members do today is to cite legal principles. I can assure you that we're just as concerned about those principles. We want to get to the bottom of this, and we will not be dragging it out. I would ask the members opposite to please actually co-operate with us, to come together with us, to go over potential witnesses, and to meet with us next Tuesday to make sure that Canadians are satisfied that we are doing our utmost to bring some clarity to this. There is a lot of ambiguity out there; there's no question about it. You, I am sure, have read as many accounts as we have, so it's incumbent upon us to not act in a partisan fashion and to try to make sure that this committee actually gets down to work.
Thank you.
2:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Thank you, Mr. Ehsassi.
Given that was your first opportunity to speak today, I won't draw out that we're talking about the amendment. If all future speakers on the current speaking list would also address the amendment in their comments, that would be great.
I very much appreciate your intervention.
Next we have Mr. Boissonnault.
2:35 p.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
I'm looking forward to meeting with the regular members of the committee next week.
If you take a look at our side, it's the Liberal members who are normally at the justice committee who are here. There's a change in the political dynamic on the other side. I think snow delayed our NDP colleague. I don't know what prevented the regular colleagues on the Conservative side from being here today, but we'll leave it at that.
2:35 p.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
It's nice to have you here at the committee. It's great.
In terms of witnesses, it is our custom to have this done in camera. I think it would be important, if we're talking witnesses.... Do you want us to talk in public about how the conversations went between SNC-Lavalin and Mr. Singh and Mr. Scheer? Because it was clear.
2:35 p.m.
An hon. member
Yes.
2:35 p.m.
Another hon. member
Bring it on.
2:35 p.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
In terms of the speculation from the other side, we're talking about a downgrade in Mr. Fife's article from two anonymous sources to one. If you listened to the CBC last week with Carol Off, it was very clear in her interview with Mr. Fife in which he said there was no link whatsoever between legitimate conversations between the attorney general and government colleagues and the fact that Ms. Wilson-Raybould's cabinet responsibilities changed. He could make no link whatsoever. So anyone who is making that link is engaging in rank speculation.
I will also reiterate that the Ethics Commissioner is looking into this issue, and the people you would like to add to this list are perfectly within the purview of the Ethics Commissioner to investigate and to call to account, to use your language. Our job here is to take a look at the substance of the matter, which is clearly the Shawcross doctrine and the remediation agreements.
Let's take a look at what you're wanting Canadians to see as a smoking gun. If SNC-Lavalin had ended up in remediation, then okay, you'd have something. But guess what? They're going to trial. Are you really serious? Are you trying to make Canadians make that kind of link?
It didn't work the way you'd like the fiction to play out, folks, so I will be voting against this amendment and looking forward to meeting with people next week.
2:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Thank you very much.
I'll just say, Ms. Raitt, that we certainly are happy to have you here—always happy.