Evidence of meeting #132 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cabinet.
A video is available from Parliament.
Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice
—on the nature of the directive.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
—for my purpose.
May I ask as well, when the Attorney General makes a decision to order or direct the director of public prosecutions to do something, he or she is not doing it as the Minister of Justice. Is that true?
It's the Attorney General who only has the power to be able to ask the director of public prosecutions or direct her to proceed with one of these remediation agreements.
Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada
That's certainly my understanding.
Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice
Yes.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
That is correct. So for the entire period of time post September 4 when the director of public prosecutions made her decision, you could only have conversations with the hat of the Attorney General on your head. You were not the Minister of Justice, or one would not be the Minister of Justice on that topic.
Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada
I can't speculate because I wasn't party to any of those conversations.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
I think it's appropriate, and I also think that it's also appropriate that we look at the Shawcross principle as you've pointed out. The Shawcross principle says very clearly that it's not necessarily to be pressure from the Prime Minister—it doesn't have to be subtle; it doesn't have to be heavy—any communication from the Prime Minister to the Attorney General could be perceived as an attempt to influence her decision, as improper interference, because she's only the Attorney General.
Is that not true?
Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada
That is not how I would interpret the Shawcross principle. Attempting to influence is something that you do as an MP, that I do as an MP, that our constituents do to us as MPs. It's part of what we do around the cabinet table. Attempting to influence is something that is part of our—
Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada
No, let me answer the question, please.
Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada
It's part of the DNA of our political process.
Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada
The question in Shawcross in the quote that you raised is pressure and that is a subjective determination. We can't talk about that without knowing the facts.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
With respect, when acting as the Attorney General and choosing not to direct the director of public prosecutions, SNC-Lavalin, in going to lobby the Prime Minister's Office or other cabinet ministers or indeed the Clerk of the Privy Council, is going to those places in order to try to convince the Prime Minister to ask the Attorney General to change her mind. Is that not the case?
Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada
I can't speculate on that. I'm not privy to those conversations.
You should know that as a lawyer.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
That's not a conversation. That's how power.... I think that's a fair assumption that one can draw. Don't you think that's a fair assumption one could draw?
Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada
I'm not willing to draw any assumptions about conversations.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
Only the Attorney General can make the decision.
SNC-Lavalin decides that they're going to lobby at the highest level in the country. Presumably it's because they want the Prime Minister to change her mind. Can we not draw that assumption from the September 17th meeting?
Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada
I think I was not privy...I know I was not privy to those conversations and I think it would be unwise—
Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada
—to draw any kind of assumption.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
—Mr. Lametti, was.... I remember the first time the prime minister asked me to be in cabinet. I'm sure you remember that. It would be a momentous occasion. In that conversation with the Prime Minister, did he mention the issues with respect to SNC-Lavalin and the difficulties that he was facing?