Justice Committee on Feb. 21st, 2019

[Michael Cooper]

—remove her, take her out of the Attorney General....

[Michael Wernick]

The minister resigned.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

When did you know she would be shuffled?

That's the question from Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Wernick]

In January.

I met the minister on December 19. I also had lunch with the Prime Minister and a senior staff member on December 19, which was an end-of-session wrap-up. Oh my goodness, that was a heavy session. We had a long conversation about planning for January, and the Sherbrooke cabinet retreat, which took place around the 16th and 17th of January.

At that time, on December 19, there was no thought, talk or any intent to move any minister before the election. It was Minister Brison's walk in the snow that triggered the cabinet shuffle. It was Minister Brison's leaving, and wanting to leave quickly, that created the following problem for the Prime Minister. “I need a new President of the Treasury Board. I need a Nova Scotia minister. I need to maintain gender balance in my cabinet, and solve that problem with the fewest moves possible.” Those discussions took place in the first week of January, when everybody returned to work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to Mr. Fraser.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Wernick, thanks for being here today.

I want to go over the three meetings that you alluded to earlier in your comments. I want to be clear on the three meetings we're talking about, the nature of those meetings, and who was there and what was discussed.

The first meeting you mentioned was a meeting you were present at with the Prime Minister regarding discussions that are relevant to today's appearance. I'm wondering if you could tell us who was at that meeting.

[Michael Wernick]

The meeting was attended by the Prime Minister, the minister and me. It was called on the issue of the rights recognition framework and a very serious policy difference between Minister Wilson-Raybould, Minister Bennett and other colleagues about how to move forward. The Prime Minister was quite determined to unblock the file and get it going and he spoke to the minister about that issue. That was almost the entire conversation.

The matter did end up going to the new cabinet committee on reconciliation not long afterward. It went to full cabinet. There was a decision not to proceed with the rights recognition framework and to focus instead on the languages legislation and the child and family services legislation.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

The second meeting you mentioned involved PMO staff. When did that meeting happen?

[Michael Wernick]

I believe the minister will tell you that there were some conversations between PMO staff and her chief of staff on December 18. I was not there and I'm not aware of the contents of that meeting.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

The third meeting was the December 19 conversation that you had with Ms. Wilson-Raybould, I take it.

[Michael Wernick]

Yes. I initiated a call with her in the afternoon of December 19 to check in on the SNC-Lavalin file and other things in getting ready for January. I was calling her as the Minister of Justice.

I remember, in thinking about January and what issues were going to come back, we'd have to move out of the gate quickly because of the return of the House, and so on. There were a number of legal files and issues that were coming up. So I checked in with the Minister of Justice on the issue and where it was likely to go, and whether a deferred prosecution agreement was still an option.

I conveyed to her that a lot of her colleagues and the Prime Minister were quite anxious about what they were hearing and reading in the business press about the future of the company, the options that were being openly discussed in the business press about the company moving or closing.

I can tell you with complete assurance that my view of those conversations is that they were within the boundaries of what's lawful and appropriate. I was informing the minister of context. She may have another view of the conversation, but that's something the Ethics Commissioner could sort out.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

In that conversation, were you assured, or did you have any reason to believe that any inappropriate pressure or direction had been given to Ms. Wilson-Raybould involving this case?

[Michael Wernick]

There was no inappropriate pressure put on the minister at any time.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

And she never had indicated any concern about that to you?

[Michael Wernick]

This gives me the opportunity to point out two things.

If she felt, back in September, or October, or November, or December, or at any point that there was inappropriate pressure on her, she had recourse. She could have called the Ethics Commissioner at any time, any day. She could have contacted the Prime Minister at any time, any day.

The Prime Minister is available through the switchboard seven days a week, 24 hours a day, and is working seven days a week. The Prime Minister is interrupted all the time for calls with foreign leaders, security matters, heads-up.

All ministers have the option of reaching the Prime Minister. Give or take a little bit of scheduling and where he might be in private time, and so on, every minister of the cabinet can reach the Prime Minister. There are also several cabinet meetings where people are in the same room and have the opportunity to ask for a pull-aside or a conversation, or to ask, “Can we step out and talk about this?”

There were multiple, multiple, multiple occasions where the minister could have expressed concern to the Prime Minister, and every single day could have picked up the phone and called the Ethics Commissioner.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Is it your understanding that the Ethics Commissioner's current investigation into this matter will examine the discussions between the former attorney general and the Prime Minister and PMO staff?

[Michael Wernick]

That is the way his request for document production is framed. It's a request to the Prime Minister, which captures the Prime Minister’s Office and the Prime Minister's department.

We immediately, as soon as that was initiated by the Ethics Commissioner, started the process of securing documents and ensuring that all the records would be available when the commissioner got around to asking for them or interviewing people.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Do you know where that stands right now?

[Michael Wernick]

I have not heard personally from the Ethics Commissioner. The last thing I'm going to do is interfere in the process. The process is set by the Ethics Commissioner at his own pace and of his own volition, and he will exercise it as he sees fit.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Okay. Thank you. Those are my questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you very much.

We will now go to Mr. Paul-Hus.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Mr. Wernick.

As the Clerk of the Privy Council, you must know that on September 4, when the Public Prosecution Service advised SNC-Lavalin that they would not be granted a remediation agreement, was the Office of the Prime Minister informed?

[Michael Wernick]

I don't know.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Fine.

You don’t know at what point the PMO was informed?

[Michael Wernick]

No. I don't know about all the communications with the Prime Minister's Office, but I can check with my department.