Evidence of meeting #132 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cabinet.
A video is available from Parliament.
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Again, you could have said that Mr. Cooper put a notice of motion saying that.
In any case, I'll let you finish your question and I'll let the witness answer, but just to point out for the future, that's—
1:15 p.m.
Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, CPC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Would you be prepared to commit to provide all records in your possession on both personal and government devices relating to the prosecution of SNC-Lavalin, any communication between the office of the Minister of Justice and Attorney General, Department of Justice, the Public Prosecution Service of Canada, the Prime Minister's Office and the Privy Council Office?
1:15 p.m.
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
I would have to respectfully decline. Those requests have been made by the officer of Parliament who works for you, and I will comply fully with the request for production of documents from the Ethics Commissioner.
1:15 p.m.
Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, CPC
Can committee members not request papers?
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Again, you can request them. He has declined that. The committee can have votes to ask for those documents if a motion is properly put. Again, we're now—
1:15 p.m.
Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, CPC
I think that response speaks for itself.
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
We've now exhausted those questions, and we're going to move to Mr. Rankin.
1:15 p.m.
NDP
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
We will ask that after you have used up your time because I don't want you to lose it. That is a question that should be answered by the committee, and not by me.
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Stop Mr. Rankin's time.
Is the committee in agreement to give Mr. Fortin three minutes again for this witness?
1:15 p.m.
Some hon. members
Agreed.
1:15 p.m.
NDP
Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC
Thank you.
Mr. Clerk, you said—and I quote you in answer to a question from a Liberal—that there was “no inappropriate pressure put on the minister at any time”. However, you did acknowledge that her experience might not have been what you experienced in a particular meeting or others.
As well, you surely must acknowledge that she could have had meetings with ministers out of your earshot at a different time and a different place, and indeed with the Prime Minister, and perhaps with people in the Prime Minister's Office, who she might have felt inappropriately pressured her. Therefore, to say that she had no inappropriate pressure at any time is really a conclusion you're not able to draw.
1:15 p.m.
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
It is my conclusion and my assertion, based on all the information I have, that there was no inappropriate pressure on the Minister of Justice in this matter.
1:15 p.m.
NDP
Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC
You just acknowledged, though, that you can't speak to her experience. She is anxious to speak her truth. She's told us, as Canadians, that she wants to do so. As well, doctrines like solicitor-client privilege have been invoked, which, with great respect, you have indicated may not even apply here. I think we need to hear from her, rather than, with great respect, you telling her what you think she experienced.
1:15 p.m.
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
Well, I think the matter may come down to the Ethics Commissioner's view on a conversation between two people and between what was sent and what was received. I think the Ethics Commissioner is the appropriate person to decide what was undue and what was inappropriate.
1:15 p.m.
NDP
Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC
If she never got directed, she certainly got fired. Those are the facts.
Oh, I'm sorry. I mean she got removed.
Those are the facts, so how can you not acknowledge that she might have felt a tad of pressure in those circumstances?
1:15 p.m.
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
During the time she was minister of justice, she did not exercise the option of a deferred prosecution agreement. And she was not fired. She was offered another position in cabinet, because the shuffle came up in early January, and she accepted it. There were conversations between the Prime Minister and the minister over the course of that week. I believe the dates would be something like January 6 and 7. I'm not party to those. Those are between the Prime Minister and the former minister.
She had every opportunity in those conversations to indicate that she had felt any pressure. She could have at any time after my conversation of December 19 picked up the phone and called the Ethics Commissioner or the Prime Minister. She had conversations with the Prime Minister about accepting a new responsibility in cabinet, which I frankly don't see as a demotion. It was another—
1:20 p.m.
NDP
Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC
I didn't use that word. I said “removed”. She was fired from her role as attorney general—
1:20 p.m.
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
She was offered another—
1:20 p.m.
NDP
Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC
She was removed from that role, and then she took another position and then she quit the cabinet. Those are the facts.
1:20 p.m.
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
Well, my view on it is.... The fact is that she was offered another seat at the table in cabinet, which is a privilege that 1% of 1% of 1% of Canadians have.