Thank you both.
Evidence of meeting #134 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was farrant.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #134 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was farrant.
A recording is available from Parliament.
February 26th, 2019 / 9:15 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Thank you to Michael and Mr. Farrant for being here today.
I was only here for part of the discussions when this came before the committee. I think we've dealt with a very important part of it, but other than criminal juries, there are also juries that sit in civil trials that go through many of the same emotions and all of those things. Do you see this impacting those folks who have sat in a civil case? That might almost—not quite, but almost—be as horrendous as some of the criminal matters.
9:20 a.m.
As an Individual
I think it applies to both. I've heard from jurors who have sat in those cases and said that they're extremely difficult. In some cases, the witness testimony is as impactful as the visual testimony in difficult civil cases, so they're experiencing the same degrees of stress.
You're disrupted from your life. You're pulled—you're plucked—from your life. You're placed in a vacuum for a period of weeks and months. You're not allowed to talk about the trial. You're not allowed to communicate anything about it to family or co-workers. There is an extreme period of stress that people that go through. I think this bill applies to both scenarios.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
I think we would all agree that if you think about those things, the trauma in all of those juries is somewhat equal—different, but equal. It would be important.
One of the issues is how we make people aware of it. I think we did talk a bit in committee about providing jurors with the information when they did attend jury trials, that they get some documentation on what is available. How important is it that a juror walk away with a piece of paper that says, “These are the things that...”?
9:20 a.m.
As an Individual
That was one of the recommendations in the report. That came up through witness testimony. I, for one, can express my own experience as a juror. I was baffled by the lack of clear documentation when I sat down in my seat to begin the trial. Some jurors have voiced that they didn't even know the trial had begun. It literally just started, and they had no idea what their role or responsibility was. They were sort of looking around the room, wondering what was going on. At the end of the trial, I was baffled by the lack of a discharge, a proper discharge, to the juror. I received my charge, a 300-page document that was the basis of my deliberation, but in terms of what happened afterward and my responsibility, there was nothing.
I know that in Ontario there is now a pamphlet that is passed to jurors. It contains the details of the juror support program, which is the mental health program and support line. It still doesn't contain any material about what's expected of the juror, whom to talk to, and what you can or cannot say afterwards. I think we need that.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
With the passage of this, would I be right in saying that that pamphlet should be and could be updated to include the things that we're talking about, that a juror has that right to some mental health treatments? Would that be appropriate?
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Just to add to what Mr. Farrant said, first of all, the sooner we can get that information before jurors, the better, because in some provinces former jurors are getting some information, some better than others, but it's at the end of the trial. For a lot of people who are summoned for jury duty, it is their first interaction with the justice system. They don't know what to expect, they sometimes don't even necessarily know what to wear when going to court, the amount of time it's going to take, the disruption it's going to cause them. So to be able to explain in a clear and succinct way the process—here's how it works, here's what you can expect, and here are some of the signs you might want to look for, and here are some suggestions for how you might want to cope with things that are causing you some difficulties while you're sitting on a jury—so much the better. It provides a certain degree of certainty and clarity, which in turn reduces the stress and anxiety jurors may feel out of the unknown.
One good template is the form of notice and information package that is provided in England and Wales. It is something that we as a committee specifically noted as the standard that we should seek to meet for the provision of information to jurors, not only after the fact but at the outset and, indeed, I would suggest, for individuals who are summoned.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
That being the case, Mr. Chair, it would seem that somehow we need to make that, along with the passage of the bill, some kind of a message to our government and the provincial governments that jurors need to be helped along, not just at the end but at the beginning of the process. It would go a long way.
I don't see this expanding beyond jurors, because that's the purpose of this, but the public would probably be shocked to know how many Crown attorneys go through the same kinds of emotions the jurors go through, and defence counsel. It's a big picture when you look at how people are affected. Police officers go through it, but in many cases, the police community have programs for their people, but defence counsel don't—they're on their own. Crowns, for the most part, seemingly feel like they're on their own.
I think this is a wonderful first step toward making the whole system far more viable for everybody who has to take part in it.
Mr. Farrant, I certainly support what you've done and, Michael, and if we can enhance that, I think it's only better for all of us combined.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Hopefully we'll be able to use the passage of this bill to once again highlight the very good recommendations in our report, which relied on international best practices. As Michael said, we looked at the form sent to jurors in England and Wales and found that to be a best practice. We looked at the exception to the jury secrecy rules in the state of Victoria and found that to be a best practice. Hopefully we can use this bill as a reminder of all of the other elements of our report, which everyone can find on our committee website.
It's in English and French.
Those who are watching and who are interested, please take note of it. If we have any provincial attorney generals watching, it would be very good reading for all of you.
Are there any other questions from members of the committee?
Not hearing any, I want to thank both of our witnesses for your very informative testimony.
We should move now to clause-by-clause consideration of this bill so that we can send it back to the House as fast as we can.
I'd like to ask Mr. Taylor from the Department of Justice to come forward. I believe he's going to be our witness—
9:25 a.m.
NDP
Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Mr. Chair, I had understood that a representative from the Department of Justice was testifying.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Mr. Taylor, from the Department of Justice, is here for clause-by-clause. That's right. That's who I was asking to come forward now.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
No. When it's a private member's bill, the Department of Justice does not testify. They're here for questions during the clause-by-clause.
9:30 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
We will resume the meeting as we commence clause-by-clause on the bill before us, Bill C-417.
We're joined by Mr. Matthew Taylor from the Department of Justice. He's a senior counsel who will be pleased to answer any questions we have about the amendments, or the bill as we go through it.
Welcome, Mr. Taylor.
(On clause 1)
We have amendment LIB-1.
Mr. McKinnon.
9:30 a.m.
Liberal
Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC
Thank you, Chair.
There's a discrepancy between the English and French texts, which risks the bill being too narrowly interpreted. This amendment would bring the English text in line with the French text.
9:30 a.m.
Liberal
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Yes.
(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
9:30 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
That was carried unanimously.
Then we have LIB-2.
Mr. McKinnon.
