Evidence of meeting #135 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was general.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
I had at that point already said, Mr. Angus, that you were out of time.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
My microphone was still on and I said I was moving a motion.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
I didn't hear you say that you were going to move a motion; I said that you were out of time. I was going to move to the committee to ask the committee if they wished to go on to another round of questions. I will come back to your motion after we establish whether we want another round of questions.
Folks, do you want another round of questions?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Yes? Okay.
There's a desire for another round of questions.
Mr. Angus, what is your motion?
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
I don't know if we need another round of questions. No, I think we're done. We're done.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
There are a couple of things.
Just for clarity, Mr. Angus, you're not actually a member of the committee. Mr. Rankin is here, so you can't move a motion. Let's go with that.
Number two, the issue is with respect to moving forward with another round. If there's disagreement with that, then I guess we would have to have a motion and a vote, if we're not consensually moving to another round.
Do I have a motion to move to another round of questions?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Is there any debate on that?
All those in favour of moving to another round?
(Motion agreed to)
Ms. Wilson-Raybould, you have been sitting here for quite a while. Would you like a break?
Liberal
Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
If we get to nine o'clock, I will probably have a different answer.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Please let me know if, at any point, you feel you need a break.
The next round, which would be going back to the way the first round went, is six minutes to the Conservatives, six to the Liberals, six to the NDP and then six to the Liberals.
Ms. Raitt.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
Thank you very much.
I don't want to keep going over the same ground, but I will just summarize and you can tell me if I have this right or not. The reality is that for a significant amount of time—from the time you made your first decision to the time that you were moved into Veterans Affairs—you had upheld the rule of law by withstanding the overtures and the entreaties of various people within the government, within the Privy Council Office and within the staffing of the government. As a result, we can draw the conclusion that your movement—not out of cabinet, but your movement within cabinet—was a result of the fact that you didn't play ball with them and deliver what the Prime Minister wanted, which was a solution for the SNC-Lavalin political issues that he had before him.
Is that a fair summation?
Liberal
Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
I believe that committee members can draw their own conclusions. I will not comment on the conclusions of committee members.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
Yes, that's fair.
At the very beginning, I asked you about witnesses who could potentially come forward. Of all the individuals that you have named—helpfully, and put brackets around—do you believe all of them would be able to give insight into what happened in these certain circumstances? There are conversations that they may have had that you weren't privy to that may help illuminate what was going on.
Liberal
Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
I'll answer it this way: I believe that individuals who I've named in my testimony, having been involved in those conversations or meetings, would have perspective about those meetings. Again, I think the more information—and testimony from individuals who were directly involved—that this committee has is important.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
This is not a trick question, but do you have knowledge of the friendship and relationship between Ben Chin and the vice-president of government relations for SNC-Lavalin? Do you have any knowledge that they go back to the McGuinty government, and were great friends there, and that, in fact, their relationship goes back further than their political interaction? Do you have any knowledge of that at all?
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
Do you have any knowledge of the fact that Mr. Butts, as well, has a long-standing relationship with the VP of governmental affairs of SNC-Lavalin, and they too worked together in the McGuinty government in the province of Ontario for a long period of time, and probably know each other?
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
Did you think it was odd that the chief of staff to the Minister of Finance would be requesting meetings with respect to your authority on deferred prosecution agreements, or even in the conduct of criminal prosecutions? Was that a surprise for you?
Liberal
Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
I was aware of initial conversations that the chief of staff to the Minister of Finance had with my chief of staff. I didn't consider it hugely problematic, but I did find the sustained communication problematic. I'm not sure why anyone from the Department of Finance would be talking to my chief about something in terms of my role as the Attorney General.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
Why do you think that the provision that amended the Criminal Code regarding deferred prosecution agreements ended up in the budget implementation bill and not in your criminal justice reform bill?
Liberal
Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
The deferred prosecution agreements and providing an additional tool to prosecutors was something that was being advanced by a number of ministers around the cabinet table, including the Minister of Finance.
I, of course, as the Minister of Justice, am responsible for the Criminal Code. As such, I was part of the documentation and the discussions leading up to and including the introduction of the budget implementation bill, with respect to deferred prosecution agreements, because I alone could change the Criminal Code.
