Justice Committee on Feb. 27th, 2019

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I am provided, as the Attorney General, with notices—by way of section 13 in the Director of Public Prosecutions Act—from the director about issues of general interest. We receive—I received when I was the Attorney General—many of these notices. This is the director raising, as I said, issues of a general interest, and saying that they are providing this information to me, at the time, as the Attorney General, to do as I deem appropriate. I made my decision based on information that I received from the director of public prosecutions by way of that note. I did my due diligence and, again, was firm in the decision I made.

I have never said that it's not within the ability or the job or the discretion of prosecutors to continue to evaluate the case that they have before them. Of course they can. It's the case in every prosecution. Prosecutors can act based on the circumstances, based on the facts, based on the input that is presented to them. I'm not the prosecutor. I have the ability to be notified by the director of public prosecutions by way of section 13 notices.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you.

It would seem to me that everyone who has this responsibility has an obligation to look at the facts as they change.

Now, I had a question about timing. Again, could you explain to us why you did not bring to anyone's attention your misgivings about the legal process until after you had been appointed to another portfolio?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. I am not at liberty to talk about anything when I was no longer the Minister of Justice and Attorney General.

When I was the Minister of Justice and Attorney General, with respect to SNC and deferred prosecution agreements, I did raise my concerns about the inappropriate nature of the interactions I was having.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

When did you raise this?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

From September 17 through to and including the December 19 meeting and through to the January 7 meeting that I had.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Then all your expressions of concern are the ones that you have detailed in your opening statement?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I actually appreciate answering this question, because I know that the letter from the chair was for me to come here and give my complete account. I have done my best to give my complete account, but due to time, in my opening statement I had to confine my comments to certain expressions and meetings and details. That's not to say that it is a complete account of everything that was said. Certainly, I don't have the ability to speak to anything that occurred after January 14.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Could you provide us with the basis as to why you think everything that happened after you were appointed to a new portfolio actually cannot be waived. What is the obligation that you cite?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I am not going to speak to that. I have received the order in council and the waiver that's been provided to me to speak to this committee and to the Ethics Commissioner about matters that would be covered by solicitor-client privilege and cabinet confidences for the time that I was the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you for that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

I don't want to intervene, but I think the question was, so that the committee knows just on what basis, and I'm guessing that it's cabinet confidence, because you wouldn't have solicitor-client privilege after you became veterans affairs minister. It would be on cabinet confidence, correct? Is that what—

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Every conversation that I may or may not have had when I was the Minister of Veterans Affairs with the Prime Minister or not with the Prime Minister, up to and including the meeting I had with my then-colleagues around the cabinet table, would be covered by cabinet confidentiality.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

I think that's what he was trying to get at, thank you.

Do we move to another round, colleagues?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Before we do that, Ms. Wilson-Raybould, do you need a break?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I'm happy to go another round, but probably after that, I will ask that we reconvene at other time so we can continue the discussions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Of course, but if you need one now, I'd be very happy to give you a 10-minute break. Would that be helpful in any way?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Actually, I would rather not have a break.

I do have to say, again, I'm happy to answer questions, but the nature of the questions seems to be very similar, and we're continuing to go over the same ground. I'm happy to continue to answer those questions, but I just wanted to put that out there.

If there is another round after this one, I would ask the committee that I be able to come back and answer questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

I understand.

The committee will definitely take that into consideration on its decision after this round.

I think we can perhaps look at this being, then, the last round for today.

This round is six minutes to the Liberals, six to the Conservatives, six to the Liberals, five to the Conservatives and three to the NDP.

Ms. Khalid.

I apologize, but Mr. Fortin attended our previous meetings and he asked for speaking time. We've given him three minutes at the end of the last round of questions.

What I'd like to ask the committee, as I need the consent of the committee, is: Do we agree that, at the end of this round, we give three minutes to M. Fortin, three minutes to Ms. May and three minutes to the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation for its first questions in Parliament in 50 years in a committee?

Is that okay with everyone?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Is that okay with you, Ms. Wilson-Raybould?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Absolutely.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you very much.

We will start with the Liberals.

Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Wilson-Raybould. We really do appreciate your patience and your continuing to stay on here—as I'm sure that Canadians have a lot of questions—to get a lot of your truth out.

You mentioned that, in the meeting with Jessica Prince and the Prime Minister's principal secretary and chief of staff, when your chief of staff left that meeting, she was very upset. With respect to understanding what that was and what measures could have been taken at that point, the Clerk, Mr. Wernick, said also that in his testimony he had listed out some of the remedies that were available.

He talked about going to the Prime Minister and having that tough conversation with the Prime Minister. He talked about picking up the phone and calling the Ethics Commissioner, and he said, ultimately, as a last resort, resigning. I don't think anybody expected you to resign, but we're just trying to understand the context and how you were feeling as you were going through all of this.

Earlier in my questions to you, I asked if you had spoken to the Prime Minister from your September 17 meeting going up to the time when he spoke to you with respect to your new appointment. My question really is: Why didn't you speak to the Prime Minister during all of that as all of this was building up? As you've indicated, as all of these things were happening, why did you not speak to the Prime Minister? Why did you not call the Ethics Commissioner? You are concerned, as you rightly should be, about the rule of law. Why didn't you take any of those measures? It didn't have to be to the point of resignation.

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I won't deal with it to the point of resignation, but, again, I did raise this with the Prime Minister directly on September 17. From that point, through to and including December 19, there was a sustained and continued attempt to politically interfere. Those meetings consisted of many people within the Prime Minister's Office, including the principal secretary to the Prime Minister and the chief of staff, in reference to the meeting that you talked about with my then chief of staff, Jessica Prince. Yes, she was upset when she came out of that meeting because of the continued and escalating pressure and interference that was placed on her to relay back to me, as her minister, from the principal secretary and the chief of staff. Those conversations included the principal secretary saying that this situation would not be resolved without some kind of interference, and the other statements from that meeting are contained within my opening testimony.

It was my understanding, after I had had the opportunity to speak with my then chief of staff, there would be potentially a meeting or a call the next day, because I was in Vancouver, with the Clerk of the Privy Council and the Prime Minister. I was waiting to get a call from the Clerk and/or the Prime Minister. That call happened with the Clerk, who invoked the Prime Minister's name throughout the entirety of the conversation. That call ended. Everybody was going on holidays. I was confident in the knowledge that there would not be any interference with the discretion because I was the Attorney General and I had made my decision.

We all went on holidays. The next conversation that I had was on January 7 with the Prime Minister, where I raised this issue.