Justice Committee on Feb. 27th, 2019

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Milton, ON]

I certainly can. Do you think the purpose of those comments that were thrown into your conversations, either with you, with your chief of staff, directly with the Clerk, through Gerry Butts, through Katie Telford, or even the Clerk indicating how anxious the Prime Minister was and you didn't want to be “at loggerheads”...? Do you think the purpose of those comments that they threw in their conversations was to put pressure on you and make you think about whether or not you would be remaining in cabinet?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I am confident that the purpose of those discussions, the December 18 and December 19 discussions, was to put extraordinary pressure on me to change my mind. As to the intention of the individuals who spoke to either my chief of staff or me, I can't reflect on their intent.

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Milton, ON]

Fair enough.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

You have one minute left.

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Milton, ON]

Okay.

If I may, on January 7 you received your phone call that you were going to be moving positions. I've had that phone call in the past as well, so I know what it's like. I'm wondering if there was any conversation that you can tell us about in terms of who told you you were going to be moved from Attorney General to Veterans Affairs, and if there was anything pertinent to SNC in that conversation.

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Well, I did state, and this is within the order in council and the waiver that was provided me with respect to cabinet confidence with respect to SNC and deferred prosecution agreements, that I had a conversation with the Prime Minister on January 7. He spoke to me about my being shuffled out as Minister of Justice and Attorney General and provided rationale that I won't get into. I said to him that I can't help but think that this has something to do with a decision I would not take. I had a subsequent, very close in time, conversation with Gerry Butts, where I specifically said that I know this has to do with SNC and a decision that I wouldn't take, to which he said: Are you questioning the integrity of the Prime Minister? I didn't say anything to that.

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Milton, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

We will now go to Mr. Ehsassi.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Wilson-Raybould. It's good to see you before committee today.

I won't be delving into facts; I will be talking about context, if you will. You recall that in your capacity as Minister of Justice and Attorney General, remediation agreements were considered and approved by cabinet. Is that correct?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

That is correct.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

You were also Minister of Justice and Attorney General on June 6, when Parliament voted in favour of Bill C-74 and you yourself voted in favour of Bill C-74.

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Correct.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you.

You would agree with me that the concept of alternatives to prosecution is not a novel concept in the landscape of various areas of law. For example, in the area of international law, there are guidelines going back to the 1990s about alternatives to prosecution. We see this quite often when it comes to our own Criminal Code, when it comes to diverting cases through the Youth Criminal Justice Act. We see it with respect to white-collar crime. Would you agree that this concept has been around for quite some time?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I will say this. We now have, in our Criminal Code, tools that are provided to the prosecutors on whether or not to enter into negotiations around deferred prosecution agreements. These are tools that other countries have utilized.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Speaking of other countries, you did reference Five Eyes. To the best of my understanding, with the exception of New Zealand.... The United States has had deferred prosecutions. The United Kingdom has had it. France has a DPA-like mechanism. Australia is in the process of adopting it. Given all these developments, would it be fair to say that many commentators are of the view that we are now levelling the playing field and that we are playing catch-up with those jurisdictions?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I'm not going to comment on what other commentators are saying. I will say this: I am not going to make further comments on deferred prosecution agreements. I recognize my responsibilities as a member of Parliament, and I recognize that there are two court cases that are currently in play.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Perhaps I understand you don't want to speak to that issue, but you would agree that there were extensive public consultations on the issue.

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

There were consultations that were conducted in advance of the passage of the legislation.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Yes.

I understand that, in your remarks, you were suggesting that some people were approaching you and asking that you obtain legal counsel.

Would it be fair to say, as a routine matter of work, that your department does receive legal advice from various firms?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I'm sorry, could you clarify what you meant by “people were approaching me” to obtain legal counsel and what context?

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I understand that you referred...that there was one discussion with Mr. Bouchard, and he asked you whether you would consider the option of seeking an external legal opinion.

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

In the context of deferred prosecution agreements and SNC, yes. I had that conversation with Mathieu Bouchard, Elder Marques and a number of other individuals.

At that time, all of those individuals knew that I was firm on my decision not to interfere with the discretion of the director of public prosecutions, and having conversations about hiring external legal counsels in that environment is entirely inappropriate.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

But you worked on some very difficult files during the period you were serving as Minister of Justice and Attorney General. Would it be fair to say that routinely you would ask for outside counsel just to have a better understanding of various pieces of legislation?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

In my role as the Minister of Justice, and having had the opportunity, as people here know, of coming before this committee on various pieces of legislation, we would engage with external counsel.

But let me be clear. My role as the Minister of Justice, shepherding legislation through the House of Commons, is entirely separate from my role as the Attorney General, where suggestions of obtaining external legal counsel after I had made my decision as the Attorney General on this matter, that was entirely inappropriate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

You have a last question, Mr. Ehsassi.