Evidence of meeting #135 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was general.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
Thank you.
Before I leave this section, would you mind explaining to us what your misgivings were about DPAs?
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
I do mind. I am not going to have that conversation. I think it's inappropriate as a member of Parliament, recognizing that there are two matters before the courts.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Ms. Wilson-Raybould, for your vibrant testimony, which is important for Canada and for democracy.
Before I begin, I'll leave the floor to my colleague, Ms. Raitt, for a few moments.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
I have just two really quick questions, Ms. Wilson-Raybould.
First of all, having heard it all, I have to ask you the question. Going from being your first appointment and going through the last four months, although having comfort going in to Veterans Affairs, which is a wonderful portfolio, and I agree with you fully that you served there, how did you feel at the end of this? What's the emotion that you felt out of all of it? You're giving us wonderful facts, but surely there must be some level of disappointment or sadness out of how everything has unfurled.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
Generally or with respect to being moved as minister?
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
I have serious concerns about how things are reported. I have concerns about what people generally call smear campaigns. It makes me very sad—and this isn't about me personally—It's about the work that I was able to do with an extraordinary group of people, when I was the Minister of Justice and Attorney General, being impugned publicly, recognizing the commitment that my public servants then had, and I know to this day have, in ensuring justice in the country and moving forward with legislation, as well as my political staff.
How do I feel? How did I feel? I have to say that I loved being the Minister of Justice and the Attorney General. I can't imagine any lawyer not loving being the Minister of Justice and the Attorney General.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
I believe that I served in that role with hard work and with integrity. I'm proud of the legacy that we left. I don't want to make anybody think that I wasn't sad, when I was shuffled out of that role—of course I was—but I understand that it's the prerogative of the Prime Minister to make those shuffles. How I conduct myself is to embrace other opportunities, which I sought to do in the unfortunately limited time that I was the Minister of Veterans Affairs.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Wilson-Raybould, the Minister of National Revenue, Ms. Lebouthillier, mentioned that this issue had been raised in cabinet. In his testimony, Mr. Wernick said that the issue had never been discussed in cabinet. We can't have two versions. I don't want the details, but I want to know which of these two people is right. Is it Ms. Lebouthillier or Mr. Wernick?
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
I'm not going to comment on which of those two people was right, but what I can tell you is what I know, recognizing that I am able to speak about SNC and deferred prosecution agreements. We had discussions at cabinet about creating a new tool for prosecutors: remediation agreements. There were conversations, but not central to the conversations—there were peripheral comments about SNC, but it was not the heart of our discussions. Our discussions were about creating the tool for prosecutors.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Okay. Thank you.
Prime Minister Trudeau said that you could talk about information relevant to this matter. Do you think that there's relevant information that you can't discuss with us?
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
I answered a similar question to this one. As I put in the letter and as I said here today, recognizing some of the questions that members around the table have asked, I am unable to speak about the time frame between January 14, when I was sworn in, through to meetings that I may or may not have had with the Prime Minister, my resignation and the conversations, which obviously have been widely publicized, that I had with my former colleagues around the cabinet table. I am not able to speak to those issues.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Thank you.
Mr. Rankin, this is the three-minute time frame for you.
5:20 p.m.
NDP
Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC
On February 12, Madam Wilson-Raybould, the Prime Minister said that, “If anybody felt differently, they had an obligation to raise that with me. No one”, including you, “did that.”
You've testified that you met the Prime Minister on September 17. You've testified that on December 5, you and Gerry Butts got together and you've told us that he spoke with the full authority of the Prime Minister. On December 18, your chief of staff had a meeting with Mr. Butts and Ms. Telford. At the very least, isn't that a misleading statement by the Prime Minister? You did speak with him. Your people spoke with him. You spoke with his people. In fact, isn't it misleading to say that you did not do that?
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
Again, I'm not going to speak directly to comments that the Prime Minister made. I believe the chronology and the facts I presented here before the committee, and the testimony that I've given, speaks for itself.
5:25 p.m.
NDP
Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC
Okay.
I'd like your comments on something that was referred to earlier. In your testimony, you said that on December 19 you had a call with the Clerk of the Privy Council, Mr. Wernick, who testified here before. Referring to the Prime Minister, the Clerk said this, your words, “I think he is going to find a way to get it done one way or another....So he is in that kind of mood, and I wanted you to be aware of it.”
What do you understand by those comments?
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
As I said, during this conversation with the Clerk I had a heightened level of anxiety. Again, this was the culmination of many meetings and telephone calls with either me or my chief of staff that continued to escalate. This was the top of that escalation.
As I said, there were three times in this conversation when I felt that the Clerk, invoking the Prime Minister's name, was acting in a threatening manner.
5:25 p.m.
NDP
Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC
All right.
You've told us the order in council precludes us from talking about things after January 14. Apparently those are the rules.
On February 18, Gerry Butts, the senior adviser to the Prime Minister, resigned. We had all these meetings about SNC-Lavalin. In his letter of resignation, he referred specifically to you. Do you know why?
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
Other than what everybody has read in the statement by Gerry Butts, I have absolutely no knowledge why he resigned.