Justice Committee on May 14th, 2019

Evidence of meeting #149 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was criminal.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Criminalization of Non-Disclosure of HIV Status

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Fanta Ongoiba Executive Director, Africans in Partnership Against AIDS

Haran Vijayanathan Executive Director, Alliance for South Asian AIDS Prevention

Eric Mykhalovskiy Professor, York University, As an Individual

Duane Morrisseau-Beck President and Chair, Ontario Aboriginal HIV/AIDS Strategy

Jennifer Klinck Chair, Legal Issues Committee, Egale Canada Human Rights Trust

Shannon Ryan Executive Director, Black Coalition for AIDS Prevention

Kate Salters Research Scientist, British Columbia Centre for Excellence in HIV/AIDS

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Ms. Klinck, you stated that in terms of criminal law reform, similar to some other witnesses, the law should be reflect intent and actual transmission.

I'm still trying to understand those situations where someone who isn't on antiretrovirals, who is at a significant risk—let's put it that way—of transmitting HIV, doesn't disclose it, actively misrepresents, transmission doesn't occur, and no charges are laid, but someone who engages in exactly the same blameworthy contact is charged. Why should one person not be charged and another charged on the basis of transmission alone notwithstanding the very same blameworthy conduct?

10:15 a.m.

Chair, Legal Issues Committee, Egale Canada Human Rights Trust

Jennifer Klinck

I think the starting point in answering that question is to really ask ourselves why this isn't being considered as a public health issue first and foremost. Egale's position, which is entirely consistent with that of the community consensus statement, is based on the opinions of medical and legal experts and members of the community as to what will best comport with achieving the optimal health outcomes and with the general perspective that the use of the criminal law should be most exceptional in this circumstance, if at all.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

So, you don't really have a problem where there is an active misrepresentation and a significant risk of transmission. That's okay?

10:15 a.m.

Chair, Legal Issues Committee, Egale Canada Human Rights Trust

Jennifer Klinck

I'm not sure that would be the position Egale would advance, but there's a distinction to be drawn between what should be the subject of criminal law and the types of criminal sanctions that should be imposed based on conduct that might be viewed as morally questionable. For that reason, we're relying on the extensive thought that's gone into the community consensus statement and the input from medical experts as to what is likely to lead to the best outcomes.

I do think that, when we take some extreme examples, there may be situations where what is intentional and what is reckless may coincide from the perspective of legal interpretation. There may also be room for further discussion on some of these marginal cases, but our view is that we support the community consensus statement on how to best approach the criminal dimension of HIV non-disclosure.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Mr. Ryan, do you have anything to say in response to that?

10:15 a.m.

Executive Director, Black Coalition for AIDS Prevention

Shannon Ryan

We strongly endorse the consensus statement as well.

Speaking as a community person here, I'll say that misrepresentation is a funny thing in the context of sexual relationships. It can happen on many levels in many ways. We've all, perhaps, done it in our lives and in our relationships at some point. To frame HIV specifically and uniquely around this issue is perhaps a challenging thing to do; it's problematic.

Again, I want to say that we support the content of the consensus statement as well. We really need to consider the use of criminal law in, perhaps, only the most extreme cases when every other public health approach has been exhausted. Again, from our perspective at the organizational level, our best approach, our greatest success in getting folks to disclose, is to work closely with them in collaboration with public health teams and public health units before it advances to the level of criminality.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much.

I've been advised that Ms. Salters is now on the phone.

Ms. Salters, can you hear me?

I guess I was not correct about that.

We will move to Mr. Boissonnault.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses who presented today.

I'll turn quickly to Egale and Ms. Klinck.

We heard from Dr. Tyndall from the BC Centre for Disease Control last week that it is entirely within the purview of the public health statutes across the country...that when somebody's engaging in reckless behaviour, there are all kinds of statutes that the public health authorities can use, from basically saying, “no more contact with people”, all the way to quarantine, and that applies to TB, to Ebola. Shouldn't we be using the public health authorities in the kind of case that Mr. Cooper raised?