Evidence of meeting #150 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was online.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jennifer Klinck  Chair, Legal Issues Committee, Egale Canada Human Rights Trust
Eleanor Fast  Executive Director, Equal Voice
Morgane Oger  Founder, Morgane Oger Foundation
Ricki Justice  Acting Chair, Pride Centre of Edmonton
Nancy Peckford  Senior Advisor, Equal Voice
Cara Zwibel  Director, Fundamental Freedoms Program, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Jay Cameron  Barrister and Solicitor, Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to this meeting of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, as we resume our study on online hate.

Today, we have two panels. In our first, we are joined by Egale Canada Human Rights Trust, represented by Ms. Jennifer Klinck, Chair of the Legal Issues Committee. Welcome.

We are also joined by Equal Voice, represented by Ms. Eleanor Fast, Executive Director. Welcome. Also with us are Ms. Nancy Peck, Senior Adviser to the Morgane Oger Foundation, and none other than Morgane Oger, the Founder. Welcome. Finally, we have Ms. Ricki Justice, Acting Chair of the Pride Centre of Edmonton. Welcome.

We'll go in the order set out in the agenda. As Ms. Klinck was here just two days ago, she knows the exact timeline she has, so she'll set an example for everyone.

Ms. Klinck, the floor is yours.

8:45 a.m.

Jennifer Klinck Chair, Legal Issues Committee, Egale Canada Human Rights Trust

Thank you. On behalf of Egale Canada, I would like to thank the committee for the opportunity to speak today on this critical question of online governance.

Ensuring that there are meaningful protections against online hate and harassment, while also maintaining our commitment to the fundamental Canadian value of freedom of expression, is both difficult and of utmost importance. As part of its mission, Egale works to improve the lives of LGBTQ2SI people in Canada, by promoting human rights and inclusion through research, education, community engagement and public policy contributions.

I am the chair of Egale's legal issues committee, which is a made up of LGBTQ2SI lawyers from across Canada. I am also a partner at Power Law, with a practice focused on constitutional law. I am grateful for the assistance of other members of the legal issues committee in preparing these remarks, particularly Professor Samuel Singer, Daniel Girlando and Melissa McKay.

Online hate poses a significant threat and is therefore an issue of particular concern to the LGBTQ2SI community. According to a Statistics Canada report on police-reported hate crime in Canada for 2017, hate crimes in general and hate crimes targeting members of the LGBTQ2SI community in particular are on the rise.

Police-reported hate crimes targeting sexual orientation rose 16% in 2017, compared with 2016. Crimes motivated by hatred of sexual orientation accounted for 10% of hate crimes. Police-reported data on trans-targeted hate crimes is suspect, as nearly half of reported incidents—15—occurred in 2017 alone, likely corresponding to the 2017 addition of gender identity and expression to the Criminal Code. We do know, however, from Trans Pulse, that 20% of trans people in Ontario have been physically or sexually assaulted for being trans. We also know that many survey respondents did not report these assaults to police. In fact, 24% reported having been assaulted by police.

Further, a significant proportion—15%—of hate crimes that are also cybercrimes target members of LGBTQ2SI community. Of particular concern is that hate crimes targeting members of the LGBTA2SI community are marked by violence. Hate crimes targeting sexual orientation were more likely to be violent than non-violent. Victims of violent hate crimes targeting sexual orientation and aboriginal peoples were also most likely to have sustained injury. Similarly, hate crimes targeting trans or asexual people were very often violent, with 74% of incidents involving violence.

In short, online hate is of significant concern to the LGBTQ2SI community, because people are committing ever more acts of hate against us, and, all too often, those who hate us want to hurt and kill us.

The Supreme Court of Canada's unanimous decision in Whatcott, a case that specifically dealt with hate speech targeting homosexuals, and in which Egale intervened, succinctly summarized the real harms caused by hate speech. First, hate speech subjects individual members of the targeted group to humiliation and degradation, resulting in grave psychological and social consequences. Second, hate speech harms society at large, by increasing discord, and, even if only subtly and unconsciously, by convincing listeners of the inferiority of the targeted group.

The regulatory response to online hate should also take into account how certain types of speech are fundamentally at odds with the values that underlie freedom of expression, including the search for truth, and democratic participation in the marketplace of ideas.

As the Supreme Court of Canada explained in Whatcott:

a particularly insidious aspect of hate speech is that it acts to cut off any path of reply by the group under attack. It does this not only by attempting to marginalize the group so that their reply will be ignored: it also forces the group to argue for their basic humanity or social standing, as a precondition to participating in the deliberative aspects of our democracy.

This insight has considerable resonance for members of the LGBTQ2SI community, who have often been portrayed as morally depraved child abusers, as was the case with some of the flyers in Whatcott, or in debates concerning access by trans people to bathrooms corresponding to their lived gender.

Beyond online hate speech, other forms of targeted online harassment are also of vital concern for the LGBTQ2SI community. Today, I will focus on two examples that cause serious harm.

First, cyber-bullying poses a particular threat to LGBTQ2SI youth. According to a 2016 Statistics Canada report on cyber-bullying and cyberstalking among Internet users aged 15 to 29 in Canada, more than one-third of the young homosexual and bisexual population were cyber-bullied or cyberstalked, compared with 15% of the heterosexual population. Cyber-bullying and cyberstalking were also correlated with substantially higher rates of discrimination, as well as physical and sexual assault.

According to a 2015 a Canada-wide survey by UBC's Stigma and Resilience Among Vulnerable Youth Centre, 50% of older trans youth experienced cyber-bullying.

The effects of cyber-bullying on LGBTQ2SI youth are serious. A 2018 systematic literature review by Abreu and Kenny found that these included suicidal ideation and attempt, depression, lower self-esteem, physical aggression, body image issues, isolation and reduced academic performance.

Second, aggressive trolling of members of the trans community has become a serious problem. Media reports indicate a growing trend, with members of the trans community who engage in public discourse online being targeted by an overwhelming volume of transphobic messages on online platforms. This form of harassment is marked by both the volume and the vitriol of the material, which has included alt-right memes and Nazi propaganda.

Further, the practice of doxing, collecting personal information on a person’s legal identity or Internet activities and publishing it to hostile publics, exposes members of the trans community to specific harms, such as revealing their deadnames, and to broader discrimination.

Such practices chill free expression, as trans people avoid participating in public discourse out of fear of reprisal.

A Norwegian study released in March “found that those who participate in online debates and comment sections, are more likely to receive hate speech than those who don’t participate online to the same extent.”It also found that members of the LGBTQ community are more likely than others to withdraw from political debate as a result.

While online hate and harassment are issues of particular concern to the LGBTQ2SI community, restrictions on online speech can also disproportionately affect that community. We know from the Little Sisters saga, when Canadian border officials equated representations of homosexuality with prohibited obscenity, that the policing of restrictions on speech can wrongly discriminate against unpopular viewpoints and groups. We also know that the Internet has become an important part of helping LGBTQ2SI individuals find or construct their identities.

In short, the issues are complex, and the stakes are high. A federal government response is needed. That response should be informed by careful study and will almost certainly require action on many fronts.

At this stage, it is evident that better regulation of online platforms is needed, but we cannot simply transpose old ideas onto this new forum. Requiring content monitoring by online platforms may be appropriate. However, there is a need to balance making platforms responsible for content from which they profit and the risk of incentivizing sweeping censorship. Creative solutions should also be explored to prevent online platforms from using algorithms that magnify and direct users towards ever more hateful and extreme content.

Additionally, more can be done through public education and information campaigns to strengthen online media literacy; to ensure a better understanding of what amounts to hate and harassment, since inflammatory and wrong understandings fuel distrust of initiatives to promote tolerance and inclusion; and to ensure broad public knowledge of the historically devastating effects of hate.

Finally, in any government response, hateful speech directed towards members of the LGBTQ2SI community must not be treated less seriously than speech directed towards other groups.

Egale Canada therefore calls upon the federal government to take a broad approach to developing a robust toolkit to combat online hate and harassment.

Thank you.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much.

We will next go to Equal Voice.

8:55 a.m.

Eleanor Fast Executive Director, Equal Voice

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and members of the committee for inviting Equal Voice to participate in your study on online hate. My name is Eleanor Fast, I am the Executive Director of Equal Voice, and I am joined by Her Worship Nancy Peckford, the recently elected Mayor of North Grenville.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON

Hear, hear!

8:55 a.m.

Executive Director, Equal Voice

Eleanor Fast

She is the first ever female mayor of North Grenville and is here today as an adviser.

Founded in 2001, Equal Voice is a national, bilingual, multi-partisan, not-for-profit organization dedicated to electing more women at all levels of government in Canada.

We are very concerned about how online hate is negatively affecting women's participation in politics.

I would like to begin by bringing to your attention a study commissioned by Equal Voice in November 2018 called “Votes to Victory”. The study, conducted by Abacus Data, examined barriers to women's participation in politics. This study was wide-ranging and, while not focused directly on online hate, had some relevant findings. For instance, the study found that 76% of men and 79% of women think that women politicians are treated differently then men, and 84% of women felt that politics is not friendly, which tied for the top reason women gave for not wanting to be involved in politics, along with time away from family. I believe that this perception of unfriendliness is in large part due to the online interactions involving women politicians that people observe far too often.

This leads me to my second point—to highlight the online hate experienced by women elected officials every day. Many brave women from all parties have spoken about this openly, or posted about it, including MP Rempel, MP Cesar-Chavennes, MP Ashton, and the Honourable Catherine McKenna, to name just a few. Unfortunately, the list gets longer every single day. The gender-based online hate they have experienced simply for doing their jobs in unacceptable. If we want more women in Parliament and in legislatures across Canada, which is what Equal Voice is working towards, then we need to strengthen protections for women politicians and for women candidates.

The issue of women in power, or those running for office, being attacked online is not a new one. In politics, it is important to have online fora where people can have heated political debates, and places where people can disagree with one another.

However, as social media evolves, so do the hateful attacks, bringing forth challenging times and a need for our laws and policies to evolve with them. There is no doubt that Canada needs to enact and enforce stronger consequences for initiating or participating in online hate.

Mr. Chair, I would now like to discuss a few of the ways that Equal Voice is working to combat the issue of online hate directed at women politicians and those aspiring to be politicians.

In 2014, Equal Voice launched its #respecther campaign, to expose the everyday sexism experienced by women politicians across Canada. Events were held around the campaign to equip women on how to address these attacks, and to discuss what can be done to eliminate them.

Recently, in April 2019, Equal Voice launched a modern safety guide developed in partnership with Facebook Canada, available to everyone on our website. It is particularly relevant for all current and aspiring politicians. The guide provides practical advice on how to stay safer online by using existing tools that many of us are unaware of. We hope this guide will be particularly useful in the upcoming federal election.

Earlier this year, we partnered with the Public Policy Forum on an event discussing online hate. Conclusions from that discussion were clear. We must work with governments and the social media industry to find better ways to reduce online hate.

Finally, through our Systemic Change initiative, Equal Voice is working to change the culture within legislatures themselves. This project is focused on working with provincial legislatures across Canada to reduce barriers to women's participation. Many of the tools developed for this project, such as sample anti-harassment policies, are also relevant at other levels of government.

We are proud of the steps that we have taken at Equal Voice, but the actions of small not-for-profit organizations like Equal Voice will never be enough. We need the government to act to combat online hate.

Equal Voice thanks the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights for taking on this important study. We look forward to your report and to assisting you in whatever way we can.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for this opportunity to give these opening remarks. I look forward to the committee's questions.

9 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much, Ms. Fast.

Congratulations, Ms. Peckford, on your election.

We'll now move on to Ms. Oger.

9 a.m.

Morgane Oger Founder, Morgane Oger Foundation

Thank you for inviting me to address this committee today.

My name is Morgane Oger. My pronouns are she, her, and hers. I am the founder of the Morgane Oger Foundation. We work to reduce the gap between Canada’s human rights laws and the experience lived on the ground of persons facing systemic discrimination, through advocacy, education, and legal means.

Hatred devastates.

Although this presentation specifically addresses anti-transgender hate, we believe that the basis of our argument applies equally to all types of online hate, regardless of the motive.

Hateful acts are devastating for the victim, who feels the rejection that she has difficulty getting rid of, and who often suffers a lasting psychological impact as a result of the trauma.

Neither insults nor the expression of divergent points of view constitute online hatred. It's the harassment. It's the incitement to discriminate. It's the deliberate publication of misinformation in order to deceive the public by giving people a sense of misplaced indignation. Hatred is meant to “pathologize” or demonize members of a community because they are who they are.

Hate propaganda acts by creating anger or disgust towards a person or group because of their identity. Hate speech incites discrimination or violence by any means available.

Canadian websites, such as The Post Millennial, Feminist Current, Woman Means Something, Canadian Christian Lobby, Culture Guard and Transanity, publish incitements to discriminate through misinformation in articles aimed at turning public opinion against the transgender community. Twitter and Facebook are awash with anti-transgender misinformation intended to justify anti-transgender discrimination.

During the 2017 B.C. general election, social conservative activist Bill Whatcott travelled to Vancouver with 1,500 flyers in hand, which urged people not to vote for me because I was transgender and for no other reason. He distributed them in the riding where I was contesting. The flyers had a photo of me, describing me as a biological male, and claimed that I was promoting homosexuality and transvestism. They stated that transsexuals were prone to sexually transmitted diseases and at risk of domestic violence, alcohol abuse and suicide.

After the election, I complained to the BC Human Rights Tribunal, which ruled in my favour in its March 2019 decision. Since 2017, Bill Whatcott has continued to engage in transphobic and derogatory harassment campaigns against me and others, focusing on a claim that he is being prevented from telling the truth that a man cannot be a woman. Whatcott’s campaign includes blog posts, trips to Vancouver to distribute more flyers, audio and video interviews, a series of social media posts and a number of articles.

Eventually the story was picked up on social and traditional media and took a life of its own, combining with other ongoing issues. Derivative articles stray further and further from the truth, and accusations proliferate.

The effects of Bill Whatcott's campaign against me continue. Two days after the ruling, Bill Whatcott came to a church where I was talking. His harassment is now mostly online and on the radio, but it doesn't end. It's never going to end. The truth is that what Mr. Whatcott did will never go away because it was widely rebroadcast online.

Because of Whatcott’s campaign, I had to teach my children to be wary of people. I had to ask them to keep an eye out for strangers. I had to explain to them why I had to do that. No mom wants to have to sit her children down and say to them that someone might want to hurt her or them because of who she is.

Shortly after the first Whatcott flyers and resulting wave of social media interest, I was attacked by a man who lunged at me at a political event. He tried to crash through a stroller with a child in it to get at me. Luckily, an undercover officer handled him without injuries, because by then, I was already under police protection.

Later in 2017, I was stopped in my back lane because of online commentary. A man, whom I didn't know, wanted to ask me about Whatcott. I was 20 metres from my home at the time, and the individual shared his displeasure. He expressed that what I was doing was wrong, that I should leave Whatcott alone, and that he and his church didn't like what I was doing.

In 2018, Whatcott announced in a Facebook video shot while hunting that he was coming back to Vancouver to distribute more flyers. He boasted about his shooting skills in the video. Vancouver police warned me and my children, and we had to upgrade our security precautions. He was in Vancouver for two weeks.

Due to the proliferation of claims made about me online, I now receive regular threats on the phone and countless threats online, some of them explicitly violent.

Because our provincial courts consider online publications to be a federal matter, and because section 13 of the Canadian Human Rights Act was revoked in 2013, there are no human rights measures in Canada today governing hatred online. If Whatcott had restrained himself to only share his flyers online through Facebook, Twitter, or his website, my complaint against him at the BC Human Rights Tribunal would have been impossible.

However, in 2013 the Supreme Court of Canada unanimously affirmed the legitimacy of human rights legislation that restricts hate speech in its Saskatchewan v. Whatcott decision. Furthermore, the Federal Court of Appeal found section 13 to be constitutionally sound in 2015, after it was repealed in Canada v. Lemire.

The current gap in Canadian human rights law at the federal level enables the publishing of material on websites and social media that is prohibited from being publishing in physical form. For online hatred, the only remedy is a criminal complaint, which has a very high bar for conviction and can require special approval from a province's attorney general. Canadians need a civil recourse that effectively deals with hate publications that can reach wide audiences like they can online.

Bill Whatcott is quoted, in Oger v. Whatcott, as estimating that the online version of his flyer reached approximately 10,000 people. His future posts were widely distributed and cited in socially conservative circles in Canada and the U.S.

Another anti-trans activist, Meghan Murphy, has had over 100,000 views on her anti-transgender videos filmed in Vancouver, a city where, if they had been put to paper, it would have broken the law.

Dozens of articles on the website Feminist Current get 1,000 shares each as they eviscerate transgender women, specifically using disinformation to advocate against our existing rights.

Canada's gap in online hate legislation also has an impact outside of Canada. We have Canadian websites inciting anti-transgender hatred in other countries where legislation is being considered, for example, in the United Kingdom and Scotland right now, and this is originating from Vancouver. It is unbelievable that we are participating in preventing other people from accessing equality. Because of our legislative gaps in regard to online publications, Canada is exporting this anti-transgender hatred. We're inciting prohibited discrimination to other countries.

The Morgane Oger Foundation has some recommendations. First, we recommend that the Canadian Human Rights Act be updated to address online hatred and incitement to discriminate on prohibited grounds; second, that any online material that can be produced and then retrieved on demand for display in a browser or device should be considered in the same way as if published on paper. As we move away from paper, our laws need to adapt. Therefore, third, all social media platforms doing commerce in Canada should be required to meet or exceed Canada's human rights laws as they pertain to publications. Fourth, because display screens are the modern equivalent of paper, when they are fetching information stored on a media for the purpose of displaying it, they should be treated as publications. Fifth, publications based on the storage of material on a media for the purpose of displaying it on demand should be handled within the same jurisdiction to keep the cost of enforcement low. Finally, when an individual or organization publishes material or allows it to be published, or when the consumer is in Canada, Canadian hate laws should apply.

Thank you very much for your consideration today.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much. I'm so sorry for what you and your family have gone through.

Ms. Justice.

9:10 a.m.

Ricki Justice Acting Chair, Pride Centre of Edmonton

Thank you.

My name is Ricki Justice. I am the Acting Chair of the Pride Centre of Edmonton.

Our mission at the Pride Centre of Edmonton is to provide supports that respond to the needs of people with diverse sexual orientation, gender identities and gender expression and of the people in their lives. We really work with the most marginalized people in our community, especially with youth.

What we are seeing right now is that youth are taking their own lives and that online bullying and hate have a significant role in suicide in youth in our community. So many of our youth spend a lot of time in the online world that it becomes central to their social lives, so feeling hatred and anger against them through an online venue has a significant impact on their mental health.

Many Albertans who live in rural or remote locations may not have structured LGBT communities or local support, so they rely heavily on online support groups that are affected by continued online hate.

For one of our service users, the negativity that gets directed toward them through their online time, whether that's through video game chats, Facebook or other social media, has played a role in multiple suicide attempts, which they have thankfully survived. This is our daily reality.

Mainstream media has a role in reinforcing negative messages about certain groups. In my day job I work at the Edmonton Mennonite Centre for Newcomers, where we have also seen online hate towards immigrants. Mainstream media plays a major role in reinforcing negative images of refugees, for example, and the LGBTQ2S+ community.

An example of this was during the recent cancellation of the pride festival in Edmonton when a group called Shades of Colour was blamed for the cancellation because they were protesting and asking for pride festival to refocus on queer, trans, black, indigenous and people of colour who are still fighting for equity in our community.

This group received.... Well, it was quite a horrible online hate campaign, including death threats, that resulted in their basically locking themselves up in their homes and feeling unsafe in their own community, which tells me that online hate really is real-world hate and that the two go hand in hand.

We also realized through this example that there is racism within the LGBTQ2S+ community and that there is a general lack of understanding of intersectionality and diversity in our community. Also within our community we find that people are hesitant to report online hate because of a fear of police and their systemic mistreatment historically, so they don't come forward.

Basically, I am advocating that we address root causes of online hate in the real world, such as social isolation, poverty and lack of education, but the Canadian government also needs to set clear expectations for social media platforms to provide information to the public regarding harmful speech on their platforms and their policies to address it.

I was very happy to hear Prime Minister Trudeau announce that there will be a digital charter coming out at the end of the month, and I look forward to seeing what actions will be taken as part of that.

I would recommend that illegal content on these platforms be removed as quickly as possible, within 24 hours. I know that other countries have such regulations and that platforms take measures to dissuade users from repeatedly uploading illegal content, so it's not just taking the content down; it's making sure that the content isn't put back up again.

In Canada there is also a lack of civil society research on harmful online speech, and I think we need more of that so that we can have good evidence-based policy.

We also need public education about how to report online hate. The LGBTQ2S+ community needs to know they will be treated equitably if they report online hate, and police need to know how to handle these reports consistently.

Digital literacy for youth is very important to help them develop understanding about the sources of news but also to help them recognize and reject racist, sexist, homophobic and religion-based hate content. We also need to foster inclusivity in schools.

Last, we need to address the mental health impact created by harmful speech online through community-based mental health care supports.

Thank you very much.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much. It's much appreciated.

Now we will go to questions. We'll start with Mr. Barrett.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

My thanks to the witnesses for your testimony this morning.

Good morning, Mayor Peckford. How are you?

9:15 a.m.

Nancy Peckford Senior Advisor, Equal Voice

Very well, thank you.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

It's great to have you here this morning.

Ms. Fast, if it's okay, I'd like to ask some questions of Equal Voice if you wouldn't mind taking them.

9:15 a.m.

Executive Director, Equal Voice

Eleanor Fast

Absolutely.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Ms. Peckford. I certainly appreciate the work of Equal Voice and getting more females elected to public office. I certainly recognize the overrepresentation of online hate against women in the political sphere. I recognize it by observation, and not by experience, being a male politician.

What specific recommendations do you have for the committee for the reporting of online hate directed at female politicians or women participating in political debates online?

9:15 a.m.

Senior Advisor, Equal Voice

Nancy Peckford

Thank you, MP Barrett. It's good to see you in this setting. I usually see you in our home community.

I think it's twofold. We have a culture issue. Until very recently, Equal Voice was part of a conversation where women used to accept that the price of being in politics, and being under-represented in politics, was that you would be the target of some online hating and bullying. That just went along with the job.

What I think we've seen recently amongst all parties in most legislatures is that we are at a point where we think this is unacceptable and that no person's rights, regardless of their gender, their cultural background, or their sexual orientation, should be subject to online hate, or analogous experiences of hate, as a consequence of basic identity considerations.

What's good is that the conversation has evolved. What's challenging—and it's so great that this committee is taking on this work—is the reporting of these incidents. I recognize that social media companies are doing better at giving users control over how online hate is received. I always give this example. In my own recent election campaign, I ran a Facebook page, which is pretty common for a candidate at any level of government. I had far more control than I even understood.

While I was being trolled—minimally, by the way—I actually had a remarkably positive experience as a candidate, not just because I won but also because the dialogue was largely respectful online and offline. I was putting a lot of focus on the online aspect. I had control when trolling began. These were things we would consider to be out of order in any regular political campaign. My status as a mother was being challenged. They said I couldn't be a mayor and a parent and three children. Some of these assertions were really ridiculous. They started to go in a direction that was challenging.

Social media, Facebook in particular, gave me control over my platform. That was super- important—not for censoring but to take out comments that were unwarranted. It's a very frustrating experience for elected women to go beyond that mechanism, because reporting is very challenging. Social media companies are getting better at responding, but there is no standard.

I think you've heard around this table that we need a standard. Whether it's a digital charter or a regulatory framework that stipulates how and when social media companies can take action, I think a standard is incredibly important. We also know that through the Canadian Human Rights Commission we have lots of mechanisms. The bar to demonstrate and prove hate language is now criminal. We have other mechanisms that Canadians would not have been able to utilize in the past. There's a loss there in terms of how you ultimately take it on.

We were quite involved in Newfoundland's finance minister's journey as a woman who was the target of online hate. At the end of the day, as you might know, she left politics maybe earlier than expected. Part of that, or all of that, was because she experienced heightened degrees of frustration owing to excessive bullying and hate language directed her way, not because of policy but because of body size, gender, and familial status, which in the end made it untenable for her to serve in public life.

Certainly, I think the reporting mechanisms have to be easier. The responsiveness has to be better. I think we need to set a standard in Canada, and that's what's really missing.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Would your suggestion be that section 13 be reinstated or that it be replaced and revised?

9:20 a.m.

Senior Advisor, Equal Voice

Nancy Peckford

I think you have experts around the table who might in fact suggest improvements to the committee. I think a reinstatement is very logical, because basically we have an online environment that is a free-for-all, apart from what social media companies have been doing. It's very, very difficult for most Canadians and most elected officials, men or women, to pursue the only recourse available to them.

As you know, Michelle Rempel talks about it, and you can talk to her about it. She had to take a constituent to court because of online bullying that really never ended and began to transcend into real life. What's the difference between online and real life? As you know, that distinction is increasingly blurred.

I think there needs to be better recourse, and section 13 is a good way to start. Could it change now because of how social media and our online participation have evolved? Possibly. I don't think EV is in a position to say one way or another what that language should look like, but I would strongly recommend, and I think Equal Voice would recommend, that this section be seriously looked at again.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Thanks very much, Mayor Peckford. I appreciate your response.

9:20 a.m.

Senior Advisor, Equal Voice

Nancy Peckford

Thank you for your questions.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Mr. Boissonnault.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

We have only six minutes in these things. I want to thank Jennifer for the work that she has done at Egale Canada and for the transformative role the organization has played in the LGBTQ2 community in Canada.

Your worship, thank you, and congratulations.

Ms. Fast, thank you. I'm a big fan of Equal Voice, women candidates and seeing more women in office. I voted for the funding to support more work from Equal Voice.

9:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Equal Voice

Eleanor Fast

Thank you.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

This is a gentle nudge to my Conservative colleagues, as hopefully they would vote for it in a future time when you need more money.

Morgane, thanks for sharing your raw and real comments and for creating your foundation. It's important. It's not easy, but it is critical. Keep being a voice for the voiceless. We need you to do more, and I know you will.

Ricki, thank you for being an outstanding leader and a voice in a time that has been very difficult for the LGBTQ2 community in Edmonton. It's not easy when a community has disagreement within itself. Your work at the Pride Centre of Edmonton has been exceptional, so thank you. Thank you for coming out from Edmonton today.

Colleagues, tomorrow we and others will mark the International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia. Fondation Émergence started this day 16 years ago. I can't believe we're here in 2019, 50 years after the decriminalization of homosexuality, with so much work left to do.

I'm in a reflective mood. I'm 45% sad and 55% hopeful and resolved that we're going to get through this. I think we need to reflect on difference and diversity, and how difference leads to diversity, which is great. How does diversity get twisted into being the other?

Just to be who you are, just to be who we are, we go through the fires of hell and we risk losing it all. It's about being different in a society that wants everybody to conform. Everybody on the panel today is linked, because the origins of biphobia, homophobia and transphobia are found in misogyny. As soon as somebody believes that being feminine or less masculine is somehow a bad thing, the phobias come up.

I will get to some questions. I don't usually do this, but I'm in a mood.

We have to figure this out. I don't know if it's progressives or people who don't hate, or I don't know what it is, but if we could just come together and get to the root of how people are othered, then I think we stand a chance. We shouldn't give the hate platforms any more oxygen, full stop.

I want to ask you some questions. How do we stop the hate from having a platform? In the United States, if you take a look at privacy laws, you'll see that there is a $40,000 U.S. fine for every privacy breach. What if we held the platforms accountable every time they posted something hateful online? For every view, there could be a $25,000 fine. Don't you think they would move quickly? Would that kind of fine system work to actually move the platforms to do more, in your opinion?

We'll have a quick yes-or-no round. Jennifer, go ahead.