Evidence of meeting #152 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was groups.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Thank you very much.
Thank you for those questions.
Ms. Khalid.
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, witnesses, for coming in today and for your very important testimony.
I'll start with Madam Landry.
Can you explain to us why section 13 of the Canadian Human Rights Act was repealed to begin with?
9:20 a.m.
Chief Commissioner, Canadian Human Rights Commission
As I was appointed after the repeal of section 13, I'll ask Madam Maillet to answer that question.
9:20 a.m.
Deputy Executive Director and Senior General Counsel, Human Rights Promotion, Canadian Human Rights Commission
That was a decision made by Parliament. We weren't involved in all of the discussions. Our information was that there had been one complaint that was filed with the commission. It was not of neo-Nazi ideology. It was not extreme. It was dismissed. However, it caused a reaction as it was a complaint against a magazine.
There were issues with the complaint being filed, both in provincial jurisdiction because it was a print magazine, but also they had an online presence, which meant we then had jurisdiction as well.
There were some issues there. If the committee is looking at any type of reinstatement, those issues of jurisdiction would need to be addressed, because respondents then have to defend themselves in several fora, which is not ideal.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you.
Madam Landry, in your remarks, you said there's no hierarchy of rights. When rights conflict with each other, how do you prioritize which rights to protect? That is something we hear a lot, the right to freedom of speech or freedom of expression being conflicted with other rights as identified in our charter. How do you balance that out?
9:25 a.m.
Chief Commissioner, Canadian Human Rights Commission
I'll start responding, and then I'll turn the floor over to my colleague.
In two very clear decisions rendered in different years by different groups of justices, the Supreme Court of Canada established that certain limits were reasonable in a democratic society. While we must have freedom of expression in this country to maintain a democracy, we must also ensure that reasonable limits are set and that hatred and intolerance aren't allowed to spread at a staggering rate, as is currently the case. That's one reason why the Canadian Human Rights Commission is calling for immediate action. This phenomenon must be addressed quickly.
The Supreme Court of Canada has made it very clear that there are acceptable limits for these types of issues.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
9:25 a.m.
Deputy Executive Director and Senior General Counsel, Human Rights Promotion, Canadian Human Rights Commission
No, I think she answered it well. Thanks.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you.
My colleague Mr. Cooper spoke about the Criminal Code being a very effective tool to combat online hate. I've had personal experience with this, where an attorney general is required to give the sign-off in order for even charges to be laid. I know you spoke a bit about the challenges faced in the Criminal Code, such as having to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
In regard to what was section 13 of the Canadian Human Rights Act, do you think there can be amendments made or issues that can be addressed in perhaps a newer version that balances both of those concerns?
9:25 a.m.
Deputy Executive Director and Senior General Counsel, Human Rights Promotion, Canadian Human Rights Commission
First of all, we have to assume that material will be clearly hateful, extreme, and it causes harm. Once we have that set of facts before us, how do we then deal with it?
It's our opinion that we need a multipronged approach, that a provision in the Canadian Human Rights Act cannot stand alone. Clearly, we need agencies, regulatory agencies, police, social media platforms, Internet service providers, and so on, to play a role.
The question is, do you become reactive, so after something happens, a complaint gets filed or a charge is laid? Section 13 of the Canadian Human Rights Act was very effective at shutting down websites. There could be some amendments around jurisdiction, perhaps providing the commission with a way to deal with things more quickly, but the issue with a complaint-based system is that it takes time.
If we are limiting freedom of expression, we have to ensure that it's very narrowly limited. The issue becomes what happens to social media. Websites, you can shut down, and you can fine Internet service providers, but if we were to open the Canadian Human Rights Act to complaints based on Twitter, YouTube and Facebook, I can't imagine that we would be resourced to do any other work. That is something that the committee should consider.
However, in terms of a proactive compliance model whereby you have standards, I'm sure the committee has heard of examples in Europe where that has happened, where they're held accountable. Internet service providers, Facebook, YouTube and Twitter are held accountable for letting hate fester online and potentially cause harm and lead to violence.
9:30 a.m.
Liberal
May 30th, 2019 / 9:30 a.m.
NDP
Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON
Thank you, Chair.
To the witnesses, thank you so much for being here and providing your testimony today.
My first question is for Ms. Inman from the Department of Canadian Heritage.
I heard you speak about the anti-racism work, which is certainly commendable and incredibly important in the prevention of people getting to a point where they're spreading hateful messages or sharing those things. However, I wonder if there is anything in particular where you're dealing with online hate or talking about an education program for Canadians.
That's something we've heard pretty consistently from people who have testified here, that we need, now, a full-blown, almost immediate ability to educate Canadians, not just K to 12, which is fantastic, but all Canadians on what constitutes hate speech, what to do if they see hate speech, and to really have that happen in a very quick manner, because Canadians are struggling. I hear all the struggles that you're having in trying to address this and it's moving very quickly.
Have you been directed by the Minister of Canadian Heritage to start such a program, or are you looking at that behind the scenes? It would be helpful to know.
9:30 a.m.
Director General, Multiculturalism, Department of Canadian Heritage
As I mentioned, we did receive funding in budget 2019 to work on an anti-racism approach.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON
Is it online? I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I'm thinking of online specifically.
9:30 a.m.
Director General, Multiculturalism, Department of Canadian Heritage
It didn't specify online, but that's certainly part of what we're looking at.
In terms of our approach, the work we're doing is really heavily informed by the engagement sessions we held across the country. Online hate is something that was raised at those engagement sessions.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON
Do you think it will be expanded to all groups that are essentially targeted by this? Certainly many groups outside of those who experience racism are also being targeted online. Is there any conversation about expanding that?
9:30 a.m.
Director General, Multiculturalism, Department of Canadian Heritage
It was racism and religious discrimination.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON
I mean more specifically the online portion. Are you working on something at Canadian Heritage in that regard?
We hear the urgency in many people who come and present to us, so I'd like to hear that there's something happening or that we're moving towards that.
9:30 a.m.
Director General, Multiculturalism, Department of Canadian Heritage
Yes, we are working on a number of different initiatives right now. Certainly online hate and the propagation of online hate is something that we're looking at.
9:30 a.m.
Director General, Multiculturalism, Department of Canadian Heritage
My colleagues in broadcasting and telecommunications also have work ongoing in terms of specifically digital literacy, that piece of it, and ensuring a robust information and news ecosystem.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON
Anything you could share with the committee or submit to the committee after the fact would be helpful for our report.
9:30 a.m.
Director General, Multiculturalism, Department of Canadian Heritage
Excellent. I'd be happy to get you some more information on that.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON
Thank you so much.
My next question is for the Canadian Human Rights Commission and the Saskatchewan Human Rights Commission.
We've heard from many organizations and groups that are attempting to collect their own data. It's very tough. These groups are on a shoestring budget. They don't have the ability to collect that data, and absent the data we don't have the ability to then put that towards the creation of the programs and things that you're discussing.
I would like to know, from your respective organizations, whether you are working on any type of outreach program designed to assist those organizations in the collection of that data.