Evidence of meeting #154 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ideas.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:30 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be sharing my time with Mr. Erskine-Smith.
Ms. Shepherd, I want to discuss with you a couple things that you mentioned in your presentation and also some activities that you've undertaken.
One thing that I think is missing sometimes when we talk about free speech is that it sometimes gets confused with consequence-free speech, meaning that people have to be responsible for what they do say. I agree, obviously, with the point that free speech in Canada is a protected right, that it is obviously extremely important and that we cherish it, but that it is subject to reasonable limits in our charter. Consequence-free speech is something that has to be borne in mind when responsible individuals are engaging in civil society.
I want to talk for a minute about a recent YouTube interview that you did with Mr. Gariépy. I'm sorry if I'm pronouncing that incorrectly. I'm not familiar with him. The topic of population replacement came up. I know you talked a bit in your presentation about whites becoming a minority. This YouTube channel hosts white supremacists quite often, including neo-Nazis like Richard Spencer, and former KKK grand wizard David Duke, who has appeared on that program. You appeared on it recently talking about population replacement. After you finished that statement, Mr. Gariépy then started talking about white genocide and how when whites are in the minority, like in South Africa and Haiti, white genocide occurs. You said nothing in rebuttal to that. Don't you think that free speech comes with a responsibility, especially when you're confronted with inflammatory and insightful rhetoric?
9:30 a.m.
As an Individual
I don't think I'm here to defend my personal track record. In fact, at a previous hearing, Naseem Mithoowani, one of the witnesses, was asked about her personal activities, and it was deemed that it wasn't appropriate.
9:30 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
What we're here to talk about today is online hate. This was a video interview that was online on a YouTube channel known for espousing white supremacist, white nationalist views. You appeared on it just last month. In a study on online hatred, are you not willing to comment on whether you believe that the interview constituted online hate?
9:35 a.m.
As an Individual
It did not constitute online hate. It was not hate speech.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Have you spoken to any member of Parliament before today about your appearance here at this committee?
June 4th, 2019 / 9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
Thanks very much.
Eid Mubarak, everyone.
There are thousands of peaceful, loving and welcoming Muslims in my riding right now. I'm normally in Dentonia Park with them; but I'm here with you instead.
Mr. Steyn, in light of Mr. Robson's comments about sunlight and having a more civil back and forth about comments rather than ensuring the stiff penalty of the criminal law, you've previously said about moderate Muslims that they want “stoning for adultery to be introduced in Liverpool”, but they're moderates because they “can't be bothered flying a plane into a skyscraper to get it”.
Do you regret anything that you've said about Muslims?
9:35 a.m.
As an Individual
I'm a great believer in first principles, sir. Clearly, things that are said in the course of public discourse are offensive, obnoxious and hurtful. The question before this panel is, should they be criminalized?
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
No. My question for you is whether you regret anything you've said about Muslims.
9:35 a.m.
As an Individual
—over the years. But here's the difference.
Naseem Mithoowani, whom I like a lot.... I run into Naseem every couple of years. I like her enormously. I like Muneeza Sheikh. I quite like Khurrum Awan, who is the third of those Muslims who attempted to criminalize my writing.
But I think there is a difference in this. I'm willing to debate you. I'm willing to debate Naseem. I am not willing to go along with the big shut-up, which is—
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
I appreciate your saying that. We talk about thresholds, and Mr. Robson was raising great concern about any threshold to hate speech. We, of course, for decades, since 1970, have had a very high threshold with respect to hate speech in the Criminal Code.
To all three panellists, give me one example of how, over the last 50 years, the Criminal Code has been improperly applied to hate speech—one single example in 50 years.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
A court has dismissed it and said that this should never have been brought.
You raised procedural concerns about section 13. You lambasted it for your 10 minutes. Give me one example of impropriety with respect to the Criminal Code and hate speech over the last 50 years.
9:35 a.m.
As an Individual
I've read the Taylor and Whatcott decisions carefully, and nothing that people have complained about before this committee comes anywhere close to the narrow definitions of the Supreme Court of Canada in both those cases.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
Right. There are narrow definitions by the Supreme Court of Canada.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
My concern is with enforcement. I think there should be a high threshold for the Criminal Code. None of you have suggested a single example over the last 50 years as to why that high threshold is a problem. My concern is with enforcement. I encourage you to take that back and think about whether there are better ways for us to enforce criminal hate speech.
The last thing I will say is that it's not just the end of Ramadan this week, but this Thursday is also the 75th anniversary of D-Day.
Ms. Shepherd, when you go on YouTube and you embrace the views of population replacement with a white nationalist, just remember who the Nazis are.
Thanks very much.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
