Evidence of meeting #158 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was victims.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you all for sticking with us through our vote.
Mr. Goldstein, you talked about interesting changes to the CCRA. We certainly aren't going to be able to modify this bill to encompass those, but would you be able to submit the changes you would recommend to the committee through the clerk, so that at some follow-up time they could perhaps be acted on?
11:20 a.m.
Partner, Abergel Goldstein & Partners, LLP, As an Individual
Thank you. Of course.
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Sorry. Could I get unanimous consent to continue for four minutes, just until Mr. McKinnon's questions are over?
11:20 a.m.
Some hon. members
Agreed.
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC
My understanding from Mr. Garrison, who was here the other day and was commenting from his experience, is that one of the problems with a much longer ineligibility period for parole is that the inmates would then not feel able to commit to a program of rehabilitation or any kind of therapy, because what's the point if they can't get out for 40 years anyway?
Would you all like to comment on that, please?
11:20 a.m.
Founder and Chair, Canadian Crime Victim Foundation
Sure. Those specific constituents, the worst of the worst—I can't think of a better expression—individuals in our society who are incarcerated for that length of time for these extremely heinous crimes, are not interested in rehabilitation. They're psychopaths. Psychopathy is a science that we are still learning about. We hear numbers that anywhere from 2% to 5% of our society are psychopaths.
Not in the Criminal Code or the CCRA or in any of the legislation that we currently have in this country are there provisions that are able to deal effectively with psychopaths, people whose prime objective is their own self-gratification. That's why we need extended periods of parole ineligibility. These are the individuals who can convince anybody. They can convince even the most seasoned forensic psychiatrist or psychologist that there's absolutely nothing wrong and that they're completely normal. Once they return to society, their existing behaviour will continue. They're not interested in any of these things.
Especially with some young offenders who I believe are psychopaths, are they interested in rehabilitation or learning? They're not. They refuse, and part of the prison release system that we have in Canada is that it's not mandatory for any individual to complete a rehabilitation program. They can say, “No, I don't want to”, and they can say that for the duration of their incarceration, yet they can still be released into our society.
I hope that answers your question.
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
11:20 a.m.
Chair, Policy Review Committee, Canadian Criminal Justice Association
I'll just add that fortunately for all of us, the diagnosis of psychopathy is very rare. We're talking about an extremely small number of people. For those who may be amenable to treatment and reintegration, my understanding is that the Correctional Service of Canada, which is strained for resources, often doesn't offer any program unless it's close to the potential release date, so we're dealing with a long period of time when habits get ingrained and when behaviour gets ingrained.
I'd also point out that given the offences listed here, not all of the people who commit this type of crime will be psychopaths. I think we have to bear that in mind in dealing with even the limited population identified here.
Again I take us back to the harm reduction comment that was made by my friend. Surely there is value in attempting to offer someone an incentive and some ability to come to terms with what they've done and perhaps at some point become a responsible member of society. For those who are not amenable to treatment, it is only a parole board that can release an offender who is subject to a life sentence. There is no statutory release and there is no warrant expiry, so if the individual is not participating in treatment, doesn't show they've come to terms and that their risk has been reduced, they're not going to be released on parole.
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
11:20 a.m.
Partner, Abergel Goldstein & Partners, LLP, As an Individual
I share Mr. Bebbington's comments that warehousing is a bigger problem than non-participation, and I caution against the pejorative use of the term “psychopath”. It is a personality disorder not recognized by the DSM. There's a very specific test built by a Canadian and it is a useful tool as part of risk assessment, but it does not necessarily correlate with anything we're talking about today.
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
I would like to thank the witnesses. Your testimony has been very, very helpful to us.
I'd like to remind committee members that amendments must be submitted by five o'clock Friday for this bill, and we will move to clause-by-clause study next Tuesday.
Thank you very much, everyone.
This meeting is adjourned.