Justice Committee on May 17th, 2016

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

All right.

May I have another question?

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

You have time for another question, yes.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

The biggest increase over last year in the main estimates for PPSC is an increase of $11 million to pay anticipated commissions to private collection agencies for the collection of federal fines.

Should these commissions not be offset by more efficient fine collection? Also, in terms of the actual, not expected, effect of outsourcing collection, can you show a net benefit?

[Brian Saunders]

We changed the model of collecting federal fines a few years ago. We used to collect the fines using members of staff at the PPSC. We decided that our ability to collect fines was limited by the number of staff we could dedicate to that task and decided therefore to try using a private collection agency, which has been used in some provinces to collect outstanding fines.

We went through a process whereby a private agency was selected, and to fund the commissions that the agency will collect.... That's the $11 million that you just referred to in the budget. It was $11 million last year. I believe it goes down to $8 million this coming year and stays at that level for a few years.

That money is flow-through money. It's not money in our budget; it's money to pay the private collection agency for collecting federal fines. They get 12% of every fine they collect.

The idea is that we'll see whether this will enhance our ability to collect the outstanding federal fines.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

My question therefore would be, are you doing a cost-benefit analysis? Will you be able to determine whether that expenditure is actually producing a positive effect or not?

[Kathleen Roussel]

If I may, we've issued a two-year contract at the moment. Towards the end of that two-year period, we'll be in a position to assess whether the private service provider is able to collect more than we were. We'll have something to compare with.

I think that even by the end of the first year of operation—we started in April of this year—we'll have a sense of how it's going, and it will give us a chance to look at what model we want to adopt going forward.

Certainly the expectation is that a private service provider is going to be able to recover more than our staff could, but if that's not the case, then we'll give ourselves probably a year to re-examine it.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Was the private service provider chosen after a typical RFQ type of process?

[Kathleen Roussel]

It was, yes.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you. That's all.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Next we have Ms. Khalid and Mr. Falk, and then I don't have anybody else. You'll let me know, if you want to ask anything after that.

In terms of the order in which I saw the hands, it's Ms. Khalid and then Mr. Falk.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Mr. Falk, for the generosity.

My question is for the Public Prosecution Service. The 2016-17 main estimates provide for expenditures of $135.1 million for the drug, Criminal Code, and terrorism prosecution program.

I'm wondering whether you can provide us with a breakdown of the amounts allocated to each.

[Brian Saunders]

I'll ask Mr. Dolhai to answer that question, as he is in charge of that particular branch of our organization.

[George Dolhai]

As you indicated, approximately $135 million is the total amount for that branch. It includes the three portions.

For the national security portion, this year we will have spent in excess of $4.3 million with respect to those matters. They include both terrorism prosecutions and prosecutions under such acts as the Security of Information Act. Then with respect to the north we have on the order of 55 prosecutors in the north. That budget is approximately $10 million to $11 million, I believe. The remainder is for the drugs segment.

Pardon me, it's $20 million for the north.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Just as a follow-up, do you have any statistics with respect to the terrorism-related work, such as the number of hearings we've had, the number of convictions, and the number of prosecutions?

[George Dolhai]

Yes, we have.

With respect to the number of accused who have been charged with terrorism-related offences since the act came into place in December 2001, we've had 52 accused, 20 have been convicted, one has been acquitted, and we've had stays or withdrawals of eight, some of which have resulted then in peace bonds being imposed.

We have proceeded to trial, both completed or under way, including guilty pleas, and 21 have been completed to date; we have two under way right now; we have nine accused for whom warrants are outstanding.

In addition, we have the peace bonds. Peace bond applications have been made in respect of 19 accused. Ten have entered into peace bonds to date, three were withdrawn, and six are pending.

Some of those that are pending relate to persons who are charged, because in a number of instances it began with a peace bond, and there's then a charge under the act that is the subject of a prosecution, and the application for the peace bond hasn't been withdrawn at this point. It would depend in part on what the result is during the course of the trial, including the assessment of the evidence by the trier of fact and our assessment afterwards.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

As one last question along that line, do you think the funding that has been allocated is enough, specifically for the terrorism-related offences?

[Brian Saunders]

The answer is yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Falk.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I just want to ask one question about the Victims Bill of Rights. Can you tell me what the role of the ombudsman for the victims of crime would be?

[William F. Pentney]

Don, or Elizabeth?

[Donald Piragoff, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy Sector, Department of Justice]

Thank you. With regard to the role of the ombudsman and the Victims Bill of Rights, when the government was developing the legislation, she was consulted. She had a number of proposals with respect to the legislation. The government considered those, and Parliament considered them.

With respect to implementation of the Victims Bill of Rights, there is allocated in the budget $8.79 million. Most of that money is going to the provinces, and some as well to police for training, and also to inform Canadians about their rights under the bill of rights.

There's also training with respect to police officers so they understand the Victims Bill of Rights, because quite often the police are a victim's first contact with the justice system. It's important that the justice system actors understand that the Victims Bill of Rights really is a cultural change and that it requires a lot of culture change by the actors—the police, the prosecutors, and judges—with respect to recognizing that Parliament has provided legal rights to victims they have never had before in relation to provisional information, protection, services, etc.

With respect to the Victims Bill of Rights, the ombudsperson will continue to have the mandate to hear complaints from victims and other individuals with respect to any federal government service, such as the RCMP or the Public Prosecution Service, regarding any alleged violation of the Victims Bill of Rights or other concerns.

Her role, then, continues as it was before, but it has increased, of course, because now there's a new piece of legislation that needs to be implemented.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Saunders.

Part of the challenge you have had over the years in running your section of the department is staffing and hanging on to prosecutors. There are a number of reasons why there have been some issues there.

Could you give us an update on the staffing within the Public Prosecution Service with respect to the actual prosecutors on the ground? Are you holding on to them? Are they staying? What are the challenges you've had?

[Brian Saunders]

You're referring to the problems we faced in some regions when you were in office due to the fact that the salaries paid to federal prosecutors fell behind those paid to the provinces, and that in some regions we were losing prosecutors to provincial prosecution services.

A few years ago, a collective agreement was entered into between the association representing federal prosecutors and the Treasury Board, which provided for an increase that brought federal prosecutors up to a level consistent with that being offered by the major provinces.

Since that time, I think it's fair to say that we've been fairly successful in retaining our experienced prosecutors.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'm pleased to hear that.

On the question of grow-ops, I used to hear for years, from the prosecutors and from police, that the proceeds from grow-ops weren't just to supply the domestic market; that in many cases this was the currency being used to bring more serious drugs into this country—the heroin, the cocaine, and others.

What have you heard? Does this continue to be the case?

[George Dolhai]

Mr. Nicholson, I'm happy to answer.

With respect to the use of the marijuana, there is still an exchange component to it for other drugs. There has historically also been, in certain parts of the country, an exchange for firearms in the United States. The firearms are cheaper there and the marijuana is more expensive, and so it is being used as a currency in that respect.