Justice Committee on Feb. 23rd, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Mr. Fraser.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

I have a quick follow-up. Restorative justice exists in some places, usually for youth. I know there's a move in Nova Scotia to incorporate that for adults as well. Can you comment on restorative justice principles and how they are effectively managed across the country?

[Donald Piragoff]

They are a provincial responsibility. In terms of management of the program, it's provincial.

There are a lot of people who are saying some of the successes in the youth criminal justice system, such as restorative justice diversion, should be used more regularly with respect to the criminal justice system, particularly for low-level offences and offenders who are non-violent and first-time offenders. Maybe some of these people should be diverted out of the system, as opposed to getting a criminal charge. Then they're in the system and it's one thing after another.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you.

Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you and good morning.

I have a couple of question related to indigenous offenders. First of all, I want to clarify one statistic you mentioned with respect to indigenous persons in remand. You indicated I believe that it was somewhere around 24% of the remand population in Canada.

You also cited another statistic that indigenous persons represent about 25% of the prison population that is incarcerated upon conviction. In other words there's no differentiation between those indigenous persons in remand and those that are incarcerated upon conviction. Did I hear you correctly on that?

[Donald Piragoff]

I'd have to double-check the statistics and get back to you on whether they're exactly the same.

Alyson, do you have that?

[Alyson MacLean]

We know that at all levels of the criminal justice system indigenous peoples represent 20% to 25% of the overall population. That's all I can say there.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Okay.

At page 19 of your presentation, the first bullet points states, “If nothing changes, approximately 1,000 more offenders will be in federal custody in ten years.”

Could you elaborate on how you've come to that figure and how that can be addressed? What do you mean by “if nothing changes”? What should change?

[Alyson MacLean]

As I mentioned earlier, a number of factors affect the crime rate: the economy, employment. Those sorts of factors would influence the crime rate, and more specifically the rate of indigenous involvement in the criminal justice system. Other changes could be some of the things raised earlier with respect to policies or legislation.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

What about the significant number of programs for indigenous persons that the federal government provides in terms of funding levels, etc.? Would you be able to comment on that?

[Donald Piragoff]

The phrase “if nothing changes” essentially means that if the status quo remains as it is, which includes the existing programs—in other words, if they're not augmented, if they're not increased, if things just stay the way they are—then given the rates, given the demographics, the prediction is that there will be an increase in federal custody unless measures are taken to either increase programs or undertake other measures to basically bend the curve.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

At page 16 of your presentation, there's a chart on Canada's incarceration rate per 100,000 people. Where is this statistic from, and when? Has there been any trend over, say, the last 10 years in the level of incarceration in Canada?

[Alyson MacLean]

These are data provided to the United Nations by the countries identified.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Are you able to comment on whether there have been any trends over the last 10 years or so? Have we seen an increase, for example, in the incarceration rate in Canada?

[Alyson MacLean]

There has been an increase in the incarceration rate in Canada. However, I don't know how it compares with the increases or decreases that may have occurred in the other countries identified here.

We can get you that information, if you would be interested.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

You've just said generally there's been an increase, but you don't have the statistical data on what that increase has been.

[Alyson MacLean]

I don't have that information at hand.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

We have another minute and 20 seconds.

Mr. Falk or Mr. Nicholson—or Mr. Cooper?

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I can ask one final question.

Certainly in your statistics you note that chronic or repeat offenders are responsible for a large volume of crimes; that there has been, over the last 10 years or so, a marked decrease in violent crime; and that there's been a 32% increase in corrections costs over roughly the same period.

Isn't it the case that those who commit the most violent crimes are not committing them because they're behind bars? I mean, there seems to be some logic, in those figures, in terms of why that may be.

[Donald Piragoff]

One of the justifications for mandatory minimum penalties is the incapacitation principle, or denunciation. We don't have evidence that shows that MMPs have a deterrent effect, but they clearly have an incapacitation effect, or a denunciation effect by society.

Yes, if a person is locked up, then they're not on the street. But MMPs do not have the same effect with respect to drug trafficking. When you pull a drug trafficker off the street, there's an economic incentive there and the void is filled. As long as there's a market for someone who wants to buy drugs, if you take a person off the street there'll be a new person coming along to push the drugs.

The effect that penalties have depends on the crime.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you very much. If it's okay with my colleagues, I'm just going to take one small second of the Liberal time that's coming up, which will start now, to ask a follow-up question to Mr. Cooper's question related to page 19.

Just for clarification, my understanding, based on what you're saying on page 19, is that simply because the percentage of aboriginal Canadians is estimated to have increased from 4.6% to 6.1% of the population of Canada, and because of the birth rate, many of those people will no doubt be young, then given the existing percentage of incarcerations of aboriginal Canadians and that population increase, you're estimating that there will be an extra 1,000 prisoners in 10 years. Is that not correct? I think you're saying that it's simply based on demographics.

[Donald Piragoff]

One factor is pure demographics. The other factor is that if everything else stays the same in terms of the amount of money that is put in programs, and programs are not increased despite the fact that there is an increase in population, then there will be an increase.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Right. Nothing else changes based on demographics.

[Donald Piragoff]

That's right.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Moving to the Liberal side, who is going to lead on this round?