Justice Committee on Feb. 23rd, 2016

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Mr. Casey.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to drill down a little bit on the remand issue—that's one trend you identified—and seek your advice on the explanation for the increasing population in remand. I can think of some reasons why we're seeing this. I could set them out and perhaps invite you to let us know which ones are identified as being behind this. My expectation is that people are spending more time in remand because we're seeing more not guilty pleas. Perhaps it's because of sentencing reform or some other reason such as an inability to meet onerous bail conditions. A backlog in matters getting to trial would lengthen remand periods. Also, as you indicated, there is the proliferation of offences related to the administration of justice, and the funding challenges within legal aid. To my mind, those would all be factors that would be relevant to remand. I invite you to respond to that.

Are there some factors that are missing? Are some more prevalent than others? I think for us to be able to address the issue of the expanding length of time that people are spending in remand, it would help to get your advice on which key factors are playing into that.

[Donald Piragoff]

All of the factors you mentioned, Mr. Casey, are relevant. Is one of those more important than another? I don't know. I would have to check to see if we have research showing that some factors are more important. There's also another factor, which is discrimination. To what extent does discrimination play a role in the fact that certain individuals are in the system? Mental health is a significant factor as well. Fetal alcohol syndrome, for example, is a big factor with respect to some populations in particular not only in terms of substantive crimes but also with regard to the administration of justice offences just because of the effects that syndrome has on people's ability to remember dates or to follow instructions, etc.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

To completely change gears here, the most recent set of stats that were publicly released related to youth justice. Can you give us a high-level account of what those statistics told us and what we can learn from the most current information with respect to youth criminal justice?

[Alyson MacLean]

We do know that the number of charges is going down. The youth crime rate is going down. I'm not really prepared to speak to any of the other more detailed statistics, but I'm able to get that information to the committee. There's an excellent “Juristat” from the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

One of the problematic areas you identified in your earlier remarks is the disturbingly high incidence of impaired driving. We've seen various measures taken by provincial governments, as well as the measures contained in the Criminal Code, to address this. I'm looking for your advice in terms of best practices. Are there provinces that have adopted measures that have been effective? Are there jurisdictions we can look at to try to reduce the incidence? Are there tools other than what the federal government has done in the Criminal Code through which we can show leadership to address this?

[Donald Piragoff]

British Columbia, for example, rarely uses the Criminal Code for the enforcement of impaired driving. They are using their own provincial administrative schemes whereby there is instantaneous suspension of the licence and actual impoundment of the car at the roadside. They're basically using the Criminal Code provisions only for repeat offenders or very serious repeat offenders. For first-time offenders, they're using their provincial administrative legislation. I understand from the statistics they have that this has had a significant impact on the impaired driving rates.

Again, as indicated earlier, it's not simply a question of penalty. It's also a question of how quickly the penalty is imposed proximate to the offence. When you get the penalty right at the roadside, you feel it right away. It's not like something happens 10 months later and you go to court. In fact, probably the biggest pain of going to court 10 months later is not the fine; it's paying the lawyer's fee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you very much. We definitely agree with that.

Coming back is Mr. Falk.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you to Mr. Piragoff and Ms. MacLean for providing testimony this morning to our committee.

I am intrigued with several of the statistics you have highlighted to the committee, so I do have a couple of questions that I'd like to ask, and some observations.

You can correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the statements your report made is that there are decreasing crime rates. Is it fair to assume that the legislation on the books, which the previous government was very instrumental in introducing, has contributed to lowering crime rates? Is that a fair assessment?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It's very fair.

[Donald Piragoff]

I can't say whether it is or not, but the trend has been going down, and it's still going down. Has that contributed? Maybe. Has it not? Has it had a neutral effect? I don't know. Clearly the stats show that the trend is still going down.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

That's certainly what your data shows, yes. Thank you.

I do notice that the costs have been going up. Also, over the 10-year period from 2002 to 2012—and I don't know if it's a 10-year period or an 11-year period—you're citing a 36% increase in costs for the criminal justice system, 43% in policing costs.

Can you comment any further on why those costs have increased more than the rate of inflation?

[Donald Piragoff]

Public Safety Canada has undertaken some studies in this area. A lot of the increase in the police costs are associated with the fact, as I indicated, that the system has become the default for failures of other parts of the social system. Police officers are spending a significant amount of their time dealing with people who have mental health problems, or other types of problems.

If a police officer takes a person to the hospital because of a suspected mental health issue, that police officer may be there for a couple hours while they're waiting. That's a significant amount of time, which becomes a police cost. It's not a traditional policing cost in terms of investigation. It's essentially being a social worker. The police will say that a lot of their increased costs are because they are becoming more and more social workers as opposed to law enforcement officers.

Correctional costs would make sense if there were more people going to penitentiaries and jails and staying there longer. Then, of course, the correctional costs would go up. Costs of the system, if trials take longer, would indicate the greater costs for prosecutors, judges, etc., because their time is being eaten away with respect to lengthy processing as opposed to moving people through the system more quickly.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you.

One of the comments your report made is that over 50% of the people currently incarcerated have not been convicted. Has your department worked on any initiatives to change that?

[Donald Piragoff]

That's in provincial custody, and 50% of those in provincial custody are there for remand purposes as opposed to undertaking a federal sentence. Now, in part, the remand custody may actually be increasing; in part it may be that provincial sentenced custody has decreased.

I did indicate that with MMPs, the effect has been that some people automatically push to the federal system, which means they go to penitentiaries. If they're convicted, they do not undertake any sentence in the provincial system. They go to the federal system. Of course, that would have the effect of changing the proportion between sentenced offenders in provincial custody and those in remand.

There are a number of factors going on at the same time.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

My time is quickly slipping away, and I have lots of questions, so I'm going to try to prioritize them a little.

One of the things I wonder about is why such a high percentage of crimes are unreported, according to the statistics you've provided here. I'm wondering whether it's a lack of confidence in the justice system, the police system, or what. Why would it be unreported?

I'm not going to ask you to answer that. I just want to throw that out.

What I would like you to comment on is that it seems to me that the only tool the justice system has in its tool belt is incarceration. I'm wondering what part in the whole justice system could restitution be incorporated into. Has your department given any consideration to that?

[Donald Piragoff]

Incarceration is not the only tool in the box. I think most criminal charges are disposed of without incarceration. It'll be a fine or a probation order. The probation order might include an order for restitution to the victim.

The biggest issue with respect to restitution is not the order of restitution; it's the ability to collect it. So, of course, many victims are not getting restitution because there are no means. There are some programs. Saskatchewan, for example, has some very innovative programs to improve the amount of restitution paid to victims. But I'd say most sentence dispositions in Canada are not incarceration.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you.

Mr. Rankin.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

I wanted to clarify again, by way of overview the statistics on page 3, that the total costs of $31.4 billion in 2008 were for Criminal Code offences. Are we also talking about controlled drugs and substances here? Are they part of what you are telling us about today or not, or are these simply Criminal Code offences? Because I'd like to know about marijuana, the drug courts, etc.

[Alyson MacLean]

These figures are based on a study that was done using 2008 data called “Costs of Crime in Canada”. It looked at Criminal Code offences.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Prosecution of drug offences is not included in what we're talking about today.

[Alyson MacLean]

Not in this study, no.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

I was going to ask you about the breakout of drug crimes in the analysis you're presenting, but drug crimes aren't included in the analysis that you're presenting. Marijuana, for example, is not relevant to this discussion.

[Alyson MacLean]

I'm not sure. I would have to consult the study once again.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Because you suggested, Ms. MacLean, that the youth crime rate is going down, and I wondered as one example if that has to do with the propensity to charge or not charge young people with marijuana. But I can't correlate that at all because we don't even know whether it's included.