Justice Committee on March 10th, 2016

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Just to head you off on this, then, I was going to ask questions about the administrative tribunals support service. Is that another area where you are not able to answer?

[William F. Pentney]

Yes, and in future, if the committee wants to hear from others, we're happy to facilitate, or the clerk can help facilitate the invitations that are appropriate.

Mr. Nicholson will recall previous appearances where very fair questions were asked, but it's just not for me as deputy head of the department to answer them, unfortunately.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Then perhaps I could ask another question that may be beyond your mandate. It didn't come up in the context of your general opening remarks, but you did talk about the general theme of access to justice, of course.

I'm hearing from many colleagues at the provincial level that one of the main difficulties in or barriers to access to justice is the decrease in legal aid funding. I wonder if you're able to speak at all to that and to your role as a department in the social transfer to the provinces.

[William F. Pentney]

Thank you for the question.

Yes, we can speak to it, and the minister will speak more to it, because it's not reflected in the supplementary estimates but will be reflected in the main estimates.

The federal government supports especially criminal legal aid through transfers to provinces. Those transfers have not decreased for many years; it's also true that they haven't increased for many years. Those transfers are a kind of core transfer for criminal legal aid, an additional transfer in respect of some public safety and anti-terrorism matters involving legal aid, and an additional transfer in respect of immigration and refugee matters where legal aid is required. There's about $108 million, or $112 million, I guess, in fairness, that's transferred to provinces and territories in respect of core criminal legal aid.

Civil legal aid, especially for matters involving family law, is transferred through the Canada social transfer, the bulk transfer that goes to provinces. Those transfers have increased by virtue of an escalator that is built into that transfer year over year.

Having said that, this system has faced, and provinces and territories have faced, an ongoing set of challenges. We've worked actively to address criminal legal aid through some efficiency measures by trying to find ways of ensuring that there's not needless delay in bringing cases to trial. We continue to work on that. We also work on family justice by trying to support people in finding ways to address their issues other than going back to court.

We've also been involved in the major studies. We provided important support to the study on access to justice in civil and family law that was spearheaded by the Chief Justice and particularly led by Justice Cromwell of the Supreme Court of Canada. We were actively and deeply involved in that, and we continue to be involved with provinces and territories in trying to find ways of achieving more efficiencies and effectiveness in the system to ensure the widest access to justice.

Then there's the last thing you mentioned, the administrative tribunals support service. That's a story about the ways in which administrative justice can become more effective, in part by consolidating back offices to allow them to take advantage of technology in ways that small tribunals and agencies would never be able to do if they were left on their own. The effort to consolidate administrative services to allow them to share technology, hearing rooms, and otherwise was an effort to look at ways within the existing resource envelope of providing more people more access to more justice more often.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

I wish we had time to explore that, because I know the provinces have done that as well with varying degrees of success. I also know that we have a crisis at the Social Security Tribunal with a huge backlog of disability cases, which the Auditor General has noted is causing real harm to real people. I hope someone can talk to us about that.

Do I have time for one more question?

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

You're extended, but I'll allow one more question, because I'm going to go back and ask everybody if they have any short questions that they still need to ask.

Go ahead, Mr. Rankin.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

The report on plans and priorities shows a large decline in planned spending on justice system support, from $370 million next year to $332 million the following year, and $330 million in 2018-19. That's about an 11% drop or cut. I'm wondering what accounts for that.

[William F. Pentney]

Given the way that spending is appropriated and reported to Parliament, part of what would account for that would be the sunsetting of programs that are subject to renewal, which will be reported through supplementary estimates and otherwise. I would say that there were some reductions that were imposed, but since then, the Department of Justice's overall budget has remained relatively steady. Within that, as you will learn over time and have seen already, there is coming and going through things that are reported and approved through main estimates, and other matters that are subject to the approval processes and then eventually show up in things like supplementary estimates (A), (B), and (C). It would be a mix of both of those things.

There have been some reductions in our budget, and we continue to manage those, but the vast majority of that would be reflected in matters which are subject to renewal and will be coming forward in supplementary estimates.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you very much.

I really appreciate the discussion.

I'm going to ask the Conservatives or Liberals if they have any questions on the supplementary estimates. We can always bring the department back to talk about the main estimates or other issues, but if there are any questions on the supplementary estimates, please—

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

What about the minister?

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Well, the minister is definitely going to be coming.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Okay. I'm just checking.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

I believe the clerk has been able to line up a date, March 24.

Are there any other questions for the department on the supplementary estimates?

Mr. Fraser, do you have a short question?

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Yes, just a very short question.

There are $2.4 million in the supplementary estimates (C) for the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights. Is any of that allocated to the provinces? I know you're talking about the provinces having to carry out the administrative functions of that program. I'm just wondering if any of that money is going to the provinces.

[William F. Pentney]

Yes. We'll get you the specifics, but a significant amount of those resources will in fact be transferred to the provinces.

[Donald Piragoff]

I can give you some examples. Manitoba is receiving about $80,000 to train prosecutors, judges, and police officers, with respect to their Victims' Bill of Rights Act. The Alberta Ministry of Justice is getting $142,000 to improve their victims restitution services. That comes from the federal Department of Justice through this fund.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thank you.

I believe Ms. Khalid had one quick question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

You mentioned that there was a glitch in your system which meant carrying two separate systems and the whole reconciliation of the matter. I'm wondering if that glitch has been fixed.

[William F. Pentney]

Yes, we have taken a number of corrective measures. First, we continue to audit and review the utilization. Second, each year we ask all employees and managers to sign an attestation form so that we force them through a process of making sure they've looked at their leave, Third, we record the leave where it should be recorded.

In part, the reason for having the timekeeping system record at all was that it somehow made it easier for managers to look at the full picture. Leave will be recorded where it should be. Time will be recorded against legal files, where it should be.

We continue to monitor, but yes, we think we've fixed the problem.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

I'd like to thank you all for coming in. It's much appreciated.

I would like to thank you. We will suspend the meeting for a few moments so that a new group of witnesses can get settled in.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

All right, we've reconvened.

I would like to welcome the Public Prosecution Service of Canada. We're welcoming Brian Saunders, who is the director of public prosecutions, and George Dolhai, who is the deputy director of public prosecutions. Gentlemen, welcome, it's a pleasure to have you with us.

You have the floor.

[Brian Saunders, Director of Public Prosecutions, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, Public Prosecution Service of Canada]

Good morning, Mr. Chair, and honourable members. Thank you for inviting us here today.

I've provided the chair with a copy of the opening statement with a focus on the supplementary estimates (C). With your permission, Mr. Chair, I'll provide you, as Mr. Pentney did, with a brief summary of what we do as an organization before getting into supplementary estimates (C).

We were established as a separate organization in December 2006. Before then, the federal prosecution services was part of the Department of Justice. We were established in order to give greater transparency to the principle of prosecutorial independence and thereby enhance public confidence in the administration of justice. Our mandate is much more straightforward than that of the Department of Justice. It is set out in our enabling legislation, the Director of Public Prosecutions Act. It consists principally of providing advice to investigative agencies where requested and conducting prosecutions of offences within federal jurisdiction. By federal jurisdiction I'm referring generally to drug offences, national security offences, economic and regulatory offences under federal law, all Criminal Code offences in the three northern territories, as well as certain code offences in the provinces. You will know of course that prosecutions are shared jurisdictions in Canada. The provinces do most of the prosecutions under the Criminal Code pursuant to the definition of “Attorney General” in the Criminal Code.

We are composed of a headquarters here in Ottawa and offices in every province, with the exception of Prince Edward Island, which we service from our Moncton office through the use of agents. We have approximately 1,000 employees of whom 530 are lawyers, 80 are paralegals, and 150 to 160 are legal assistants who work with the lawyers and paralegals in preparing cases for court. We also retain the services of private sector lawyers across the country. As you can understand, we have to appear in every court across this country, and often it's not economical to have a full-time employee in a small community in a northern part of Ontario or Manitoba to do one case a week. We have approximately 550 private sector lawyers under retainer who act as federal prosecutors. Our budget is $185.7 million a year. That's what we're seeking in the main estimates this year. We also, as is the case with Justice, have the authority to recover costs of certain services from other government organizations, basically investigative agencies, and we can recover up to $22.7 million a year.

The position of the commissioner of Canada elections has been part of our organization since October 2014. As you know, he is responsible for conducting investigations under the Canada Elections Act and the federal Referendum Act, and for ensuring compliance with those statutes. His budget forms part of our budget, but by law he's to conduct his investigations independently of our organization. He's also a deputy head for purposes of staffing and labour relations within his organization. None of these supplementary estimates (C) requests concern the office of the commissioner of Canada Elections.

I'll now turn to the two requests we have under supplementary estimates (C). They amount to $4.6 million and are for, as I say, two initiatives. Four million dollars is to cover an anticipated increase in prosecution labour work resulting from the coming into force of the Protecting Canadians from Online Crime Act. The act amended the Criminal Code to provide investigators with new investigative tools. It is expected that prosecutors will be called upon to provide advice on the use of these tools and whether they've been used appropriately. The remaining $0.6 million is the result of the enactment of the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights. The act places new responsibilities on prosecutors in respect of victims. The funds will be used to cover the salary costs of four additional crown witness coordinators in the north. The coordinators provide crucial support to complainants and victims as witnesses as they navigate their way through the criminal justice system.

With that, I'll conclude my opening remarks. We welcome any questions.