Evidence of meeting #51 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was accused.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Shelly MacInnis-Wynn  As an Individual
Michael Elliott  President, Alberta Federation of Police Associations
William Trudell  Chair, Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers

5:05 p.m.

President, Alberta Federation of Police Associations

Michael Elliott

From an Alberta perspective, my colleague mentioned something: right now, police officers cannot provide bail hearings unless it's a summary conviction. It's going to have be a crown. In this case, a crown is providing that information. Police officers, from my perspective, should not be doing bail hearings. We're police officers, we're upholding the law, and we're doing our job. Our job is not to do bail hearings.

To help from your perspective, that's the crown's obligation to make that occur, to make sure all the information is provided.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC

If I may, perhaps in the context of preparing the bail package, what is incumbent on you?

5:05 p.m.

President, Alberta Federation of Police Associations

Michael Elliott

From my perspective, nothing will change—

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC

Okay.

5:05 p.m.

President, Alberta Federation of Police Associations

Michael Elliott

—from that because I'm still going to provide your CPIC printout, your JOIN printout, and all relevant information that I have on that accused. In this case, I will provide that bail package to the crown when the crown presents to the justice of the peace.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC

As law enforcement, your approach to preparing that package with or without this legislation would not change.

5:05 p.m.

President, Alberta Federation of Police Associations

Michael Elliott

That's correct.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Mr. Bittle and Mr. Cooper.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Thank you. I'm a civil litigator. I do apologize.

There we go.

We're all on the same page. It's a very Canadian parliamentary moment with everyone apologizing to everyone.

5:05 p.m.

Chair, Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers

William Trudell

I was just told that was an appropriate apology from me.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

As I have never seen a consent bail hearing or a bail hearing at all, could you please briefly describe what goes on at a consent hearing, how often it happens, and would these amendments limit the ability to have these?

5:05 p.m.

Chair, Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers

William Trudell

What goes on in a consent bail is this. Crown packages are available. A prosecutor, whether for the province or the PPSC in drug matters, looks at it, looks at the criminal record, looks at the accused, and in a drug case finds out whether there's an addiction issue. The prosecutor looks at whether the accused has roots in the community, and maybe whether they have a surety. If those boxes are ticked off and they have a discussion with the officer in charge, then they will consent to a release on terms that the officer may help with, such as whether or not to have a curfew on this person or whether or not they should report—whatever conditions reflect the case.

That's how it works in, I would say, 60% and maybe more of all cases. In other words, you and I are preparing to appear in front of the committee. We're working on what we're going to submit to the committee. You're going to ask me the questions. I'm going to ask you the questions. Then we're going to go to the judge and say we have agreed on this.

What that means is that crown counsel is going to ask the proper questions. Then what happens is that a defence counsel may show up or maybe get in early and say, do you know what, I've got a surety. I've got the bail program. I've got a drug addiction program. So you build that in. Then you add the third important party into that consent release. It's done like that. Sometimes what happens is that defence counsel and the accused person, particularly if the latter is not represented, often agree to all kinds of terms just to get out. Then you find that the accused doesn't have a house, doesn't have an alarm clock, and can't follow those terms.

Sometimes crown counsel will say, we want these terms, and they're not necessary. But that's what happens in a consent bail. The work is done in advance.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Would these amendments to the code limit the ability to engage in that activity?

5:10 p.m.

Chair, Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers

William Trudell

Absolutely, you have proposed subparagraph (iv). It says:

to show the circumstances of the alleged offence, particularly as they relate to the probability of conviction of the accused

That's a trial. That bail hearing is going to take a while for sure, so yes.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

This is likely my final question.

5:10 p.m.

Chair, Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers

William Trudell

Sir, can I say that the crown counsel will be forced not to consent. Then the courts are going to implode.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Do you see charter issues with this bill?

5:10 p.m.

Chair, Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers

William Trudell

It's hard for the public to understand when someone is charged with an offence, but we start off with a presumption that this person deserves to be in the community according to the charter. Anything that seems to interfere with this—anything that is not reasonable and not proportionate—will face a charter challenge, no question.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

I just have a follow-up question. You don't see this, especially roman numeral (iv) as reasonable or proportional?

5:10 p.m.

Chair, Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers

William Trudell

I think it's a nightmare.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Fair enough.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I too want to echo the sentiments of my committee colleagues to Mrs. Wynn, and thank you for your presence here today.

I don't know if you have a copy of this in front of you. Mr. Elliott has one. My understanding of your testimony thus far is that you believe strongly that had this information in this document been presented at the bail hearing released Mr. Rehn, he would not have been released and we wouldn't be here today and wouldn't be having this discussion because you wouldn't even know who I am.

5:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Shelly MacInnis-Wynn

Exactly. This took how long?

5:10 p.m.

President, Alberta Federation of Police Associations

Michael Elliott

I can print that off in 30 seconds to a minute.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

That was my next question to Mr. Elliott. How long would it take to produce this information—not necessarily in this format, but information that would be legible and presentable to a justice? You say 30 seconds to...