Evidence of meeting #7 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was equality.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kim Beaudin  President, Aboriginal Affairs Coalition of Saskatchewan
Jerry Peltier  Senior Advisor, Congress of Aboriginal Peoples
Cynthia Petersen  Partner, Goldblatt Partners LLP, As an Individual
Gwendolyn Landolt  National Vice-President, REAL Women of Canada
Kasari Govender  Executive Director, West Coast Women's Legal Education and Action Fund
Rajwant Mangat  Director of Litigation, West Coast Women's Legal Education and Action Fund
Diane O'Reggio  Executive Director, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund
Elizabeth Shilton  Board of Directors Member, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

That's great, thank you.

My next question is basically for everybody who wants to comment on it.

Budget 2016 allots $5 million a year to fund a new CCP, which is a lot more than the former court challenges program. In the former court challenges program there were three areas that were provided funding. There was the test case work, the impact studies, and then promotion and access to the program.

Do you think that there are other areas that a newly revamped court challenges program should be putting money into, funding, with respect to building upon rights or ensuring that constitutional rights are maintained?

10:35 a.m.

National Vice-President, REAL Women of Canada

Gwendolyn Landolt

I don't think you can build on any more rights until you get the defects in the program corrected, so that there's fairness and a lack of discrimination in the program. Why would you fund other rights, when only special-interest rights are being funded and not general rank-and-file concepts? It's a waste of taxpayers' money to fund all these so-called rights, when only special people with special interests get funded. It seems to me that you can't make up more rights when only those are recognized by the program....

I would say no, until we work out what you mean by “equality”, what you mean by “disadvantage”, because there's utter discrimination, and you cannot fund anything more until we work out the basics of the program, which has such appalling defects.

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Sorry to cut you off, but could I hear from the other ladies as well, please?

10:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund

Diane O'Reggio

I would respectfully say the current budget amount would probably just cover these three areas.

My understanding from reading the reference to this in the budget was that it was $12 million over five years, which would be approximately $2.5 million per year. There was a reference to other federal investments, and it would need to be clarified where those funds were coming from.

In terms of the priority areas, as we noted in our presentation, test case litigation is foremost in promoting equality rights. Having that opportunity for organizations to work together through a consultative basis would be very important.

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Okay, thank you. I think we're getting close on time.

I will now give the floor to Ms. Trudel, whom I welcome to our committee.

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Karine Trudel NDP Jonquière, QC

First of all, I thank all of the witnesses for their testimony.

In my riding of Jonquière, Quebec, I work with several women's groups. So it is a pleasure for me to listen to you this morning.

My question is divided into two parts, and is addressed to Ms. Mangat.

First of all, why do you need—

10:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

She's asking you your first question—well, until you can get the earphone in.

10:40 a.m.

Director of Litigation, West Coast Women's Legal Education and Action Fund

Rajwant Mangat

Yes. I'm having a bit of difficulty.

10:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you, Mr. MacPherson.

10:40 a.m.

NDP

Karine Trudel NDP Jonquière, QC

Sorry, my English is a little....

10:40 a.m.

Director of Litigation, West Coast Women's Legal Education and Action Fund

Rajwant Mangat

My French is terrible.

Thank you.

10:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Please continue.

10:40 a.m.

NDP

Karine Trudel NDP Jonquière, QC

Why do you need the court challenges program?

10:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Why do you need the court challenges program?

10:40 a.m.

Director of Litigation, West Coast Women's Legal Education and Action Fund

Rajwant Mangat

Why do we need the court challenges program? Thank you.

10:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

I think it will work better if I translate the question myself.

10:40 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

10:40 a.m.

Director of Litigation, West Coast Women's Legal Education and Action Fund

Rajwant Mangat

As several other people on the panel have said, litigation is expensive, and as you can imagine, constitutional litigation requires amassing a considerable evidentiary record from lay witnesses and expert witnesses. Even if you're able to secure pro bono lawyers, who are willing to do all of the legal work for free, there are all sorts of disbursements that you need to fund, such as bringing those experts together, paying for those experts to provide reports for the court, typically through three levels of court, and at the trial level. Inevitably these cases get appealed at least once, if not twice, to the Supreme Court.

The cost for us as an organization for bringing a case is quite significant, because it takes staff resources away from the other work that we do day-to-day in education and other parts of our mandate. We're already working with shoestring budgets. I believe it was Cynthia Petersen who had said that the amount of the funding was really seed funding. It's a drop in the bucket of the general budget for a big test case litigation challenge. For us, it's the fact that there is some dedicated money there that will allow the case to move forward. We won't have to depend on the vagaries of fundraising and different donor tendencies whether they will fund a particular case or not, as well as having to rely on the insecure and unstable process of seeking funds dollar by dollar to try to put together enough money to even launch the first part of it.

For us, it's very much a necessary part of doing that impact litigation that we think is important and that allows us to enhance and promote equality rights through the charter.

10:40 a.m.

NDP

Karine Trudel NDP Jonquière, QC

You talked about the costs. Can you give me an example of a typical case and give me some idea of the costs involved? Do you have that information?

10:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Can you provide the numbers for a specific case to explain your position?

10:40 a.m.

Director of Litigation, West Coast Women's Legal Education and Action Fund

Rajwant Mangat

Like how much it would cost...? West Coast LEAF has not launched a full-on test case before. Yet, as LEAF had mentioned in their submission, we typically have taken an intervention strategy wherein we intervene when a case is already brought by other organizations.

But I know from my work as a lawyer that a large constitutional test case can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. That's for the organization bringing the challenge forward. The case is filed in the name of the organization and in the names of different individuals. So to take something like that to trial, especially where you're up against the government—federal or provincial, but let's talk federal—which has deep pockets.... Then typically, because these issues are all very intersecting federally and provincially, as Mr. Nicholson mentioned in the context of family law for example, you will have the provincial attorneys-general intervening in the case as well. So there are typically many groups and litigants involved in the case.

So I think hundreds of thousands of dollars is not an exaggeration for how much it will cost to bring one of these cases forward, and that's not including how much your pro bono lawyers would charge if they could actually get you to pay them.

10:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

I think that Ms. Peterson also wants to speak.

Ms. Peterson, you have the floor.

10:45 a.m.

Partner, Goldblatt Partners LLP, As an Individual

Cynthia Petersen

I simply want to add that I support her comment. She is not exaggerating when she says that it would cost that much. However, I am also a practising lawyer, and my opinion is that this would only be at first instance. Preparing a case for Superior Court can easily cost a half million dollars. Then there is the appeal, and then the appeal before the Supreme Court.

Moreover, each appeal level always involves more interveners in the issues. I think this is a good thing, and I am not saying that to criticize the interveners, but it also increases court case costs. Indeed, every intervener has a written argument that is submitted to the court. We must answer all of the arguments from all of the interveners, and not only the arguments of the opposite side.

In my opinion, a half million dollars is thus a normal amount, but only in first instance proceedings.

10:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

We're going to run slightly over—five minutes over—because I want to give everybody a chance to complete their remarks.

Mr. Hussen, you have the last questions.

April 14th, 2016 / 10:45 a.m.

Liberal

Ahmed Hussen Liberal York South—Weston, ON

Thank you for coming in this morning. It's been very helpful.

I just quickly wanted to ask a question of LEAF. To what extent have you been able to continue to litigate equality cases since the cancellation of the program?