Justice Committee on Dec. 6th, 2017

[Dr. Vivien Lee]

Yes, I just wanted to make a corollary to that. What I've heard a lot from first responders is that almost every service has access to their employee assistance program, EAP. I hear so many stories of people trying to reach out to their EAP counsellors, and they find it very frustrating, so they go only once or twice.

Similar to what Dr. Baillie is saying, many of these counsellors don't get it. They don't get trauma. They don't understand cumulative trauma. They don't understand trauma that's part of someone's work or duties.

They find it very helpful to speak with someone who really understands what that world is like and what the impact of cumulative trauma is.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you.

We have a couple more short questions.

Mr. Fraser and then Mr. Boissonnault.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Kyllo, perhaps I will ask you a question similar to what Mr. Cooper asked about the debriefing program. I understand they have that program in Manitoba where you receive that information. But what, in your opinion, would be a model debriefing session, post-trial, and do you think it would better to have an individualized debriefing session with each juror or to have a collective sort of thing?

[Greg Kyllo]

It's a very good question.

I have my own personal thoughts on that, but I'll defer to my esteemed colleagues, who might be able to provide a more professional opinion on that.

[Dr. Patrick Baillie]

My more professional opinion is both.

[Greg Kyllo]

Yes, that was my suggestion.

[Dr. Patrick Baillie]

As a group, there are 12 jurors, 14 jurors, who have been through a process. In the same way that we do debriefs with first responders who have been involved in a critical incident, there are appropriate ways of doing that, and some criticisms of some inappropriate ways of doing that. Allow the jury to vent as a group about some of their experiences, but then follow up with those who want the individual follow-up, or at the very least, touch base with them.

Again, concerning undercover police units—we talked about people viewing graphic images—homicide units, and integrated child exploitation units, we do mental health checks with them on an annual basis. Somebody may come in and see me for 10 minutes and say, “I'm doing okay. Thanks for checking in.” Other people may say, “I'm so glad that this is a regular part of our routine, because now I get a chance to tell you what's been going on.”

I think you should do the same thing with jurors. If somebody says, “No, I'm good today, but I appreciate knowing what the supports are for me down the road if something comes up”, then that's another opportunity to reinforce those supports.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Dr. Lee, do you have any comment on that?

[Dr. Vivien Lee]

I absolutely agree. This kind of debriefing or check-in can certainly be done as a group, where if members want to talk....

You want to be careful that people don't go too much into trauma detail, because that can be very upsetting for other people in the group. It's just to give some education about symptoms, what can happen down the road, and whether anyone wants to talk about how they're feeling. Then it's, “Here's the number. Call us if you want.”

You can do it as a group, but then, as Dr. Baillie was saying, follow up individually.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Great.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you.

Mr. Boissonnault.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to all of the witnesses.

We will listen to more witnesses. We will write a report. We will recommend some money. Hopefully, the money gets found, and it gets to the people who need it.

Are there enough people to provide the supports who have the expertise that Dr. Lee, Mr. Kyllo, and you have outlined as being necessary to provide the proper care, or are we setting ourselves up to create a demand for which we don't have the supply of professionals? That is the first question.

The second question is this. We told military people in the past to suck it up, tough it out, and push through. That didn't work. We did the same with first responders. That didn't work. Now we're doing it with jurors.

My very basic layperson question is, are we asking too much of jurors, or is it just that we're asking too much of jurors without the proper supports in place?

Anyone can respond.

[Dr. Vivien Lee]

I can go first.

In terms of there being enough clinicians if this were to roll out across Canada tomorrow, there probably wouldn't be, but certainly this is something in which there is a lot of interest. More and more people have been getting trained in appropriate types of trauma treatment, with all the focus on veterans coming back from Afghanistan and increasing recognition of what first responders go through. There are certainly opportunities for training that could be put into place fairly quickly. It couldn't happen tomorrow, but it could definitely happen over time.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you.

[Dr. Patrick Baillie]

As Mr. Kyllo commented, I think we look at the occupational stress injury clinics that most provinces have available to them. Those are going to have a number of professionals who are trained in trauma.

Again, 20 jurors, in the two years that Alberta's had its program.... I would certainly hope that we're able to provide that number of resources. One of the challenges comes when jurors come from more remote areas, but we have the wonderful technologies these days that allow for coverage to be provided to those groups as well.

I agree with Dr. Lee that probably not tomorrow but in a very short period of time, each province should be able to recognize quality professionals, like psychologists, social workers, and other individuals. Then they'll be able to provide the services.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you.

Could you respond, Ms. Lonergan?

[Michelle Lonergan]

Other treatments are currently being developed for PTSD. In our lab, we work on one. It's a little bit complicated, but essentially, it's trying to dampen the emotional tone of the traumatic memory to alleviate the symptoms. We've been working on it for about a decade.

What's really fun with it is that we get similar results to those from evidence-based treatments, right now, but we do it in half the time, at half the cost, and with students who can be trained right out...undergraduates do it because it's a very easy treatment to implement.

These types of things are coming up. It's still in the experimental phase, so it's not widely used right now, but these things are coming up too. Our hope is that, in the near future, it becomes something that's more mainstream and that more people can be trained and we can reach a lot more people.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Now, regarding my question as to whether we are asking too much of jurors, would anybody want to take that on?

[Dr. Patrick Baillie]

I was involved in a trial back in 1996 and I was sitting with a number of the lawyers after the trial was over. One of the lawyers talked about a previous year in which he had done 12 homicide trials in a calendar year.

It simply doesn't happen anymore because of the complexity of the voir dire in each case, the charter challenges, and the admissibility of evidence.

In a complicated trial, we then ask jurors to be beyond a reasonable doubt on certain facets, but on a preponderance of possibility on other evidence. We have made the process very complicated.

However, I think the part that creates the most complications is the length of the trial. In the good old days, a homicide trial was three, four, or maybe five days long. The Daniel McNaughton trial, the infamous insanity case, was a three-day trial. Now, we take these trials and put them out over five or 10 months, as you heard from the witnesses two weeks ago.

That increases the repetitive exposure to this gruesome testimony, to the evidence, to the videos, and to the physical exhibits to the testimony. That makes it much more demanding on juries, and I think it gets to the point where we are expecting too much from some individuals.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you all very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you very much. Are there any other questions?

I'm not seeing any.

I want to thank our group of witnesses from today. As all of my colleagues have said, your testimony has been very helpful and very instructive. Clear recommendations are always appreciated.

Thank all of you so much for coming in or for testifying online from Toronto.

The meeting is adjourned.