Justice Committee on Dec. 6th, 2017

[Dr. Patrick Baillie]

I know the defence counsel in that case quite well.

In my view—and I don't mean to prejudge the Court of Appeal—what Justice Gates was doing was looking out for the mental health of the jurors relative to the evidence they were hearing about the victims. That evidence didn't necessarily point to this accused as being the perpetrator. When you provide information for the jury that says that a child died in this offence, unless there's some dispute about whether or not the child died or simply disappeared, we know that a child died, or that a child was a victim of sexual abuse.

I don't think it biases the jury to say, “This is the type of testimony that you're likely to be hearing.” Again, as all of us have said, reminding people of their natural resiliency skills—monitoring their sleep, monitoring their appetite, getting a regular workout, maintaining their social contacts, and restricting their consumption of alcohol and other drugs.... I don't think that creates a bias.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

I have just a quick comment, Mr. Kyllo—

Actually there's one more thing. We actually had one of the kicked-out jurors as a witness, which was very helpful. Again, that's a real issue that somehow doesn't seem that difficult to solve.

[Dr. Patrick Baillie]

Right.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

Mr. Kyllo, this is just a quick comment, and it's not criticism. Some of the testimony we've had seemed to indicate that Alberta has had in place for a long time the most progressive program. I guess that's the way I can put it. Yet in your remarks, you made no mention of Alberta. You mentioned Ontario and Manitoba.

Is the Canadian Mental Health Association familiar with Alberta's program, and is it one that might be modelled by other provinces?

[Greg Kyllo]

Absolutely, I would suggest that it would be probably one of the best practices out there. I mentioned Ontario and Manitoba because they're less known, and I would have assumed that you'd heard quite a lot about Alberta's programs to date.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Ehsassi.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I in turn would like to thank all of you. You've been incredibly helpful. Given that it is getting pretty late, I'll keep it very brief.

Dr. Lee, you obviously have a lot of experience dealing with first responders. Is there any legislation, policy, or code of conduct that applies to first responders that we could graft and use when it comes to jurors? Is there anything that comes to mind?

[Dr. Vivien Lee]

Services vary widely across Canada in terms of what they offer their staff. I've been a trainer with York Region Paramedic Services. I'm going to use them as an example, because I think they're doing a great job. With all their paramedics, I'm actually one of their clinician trainers for a resiliency-mental health preparedness program. They're just going in, and with all the new recruits and all the seasoned staff, they're just talking about, “What are some of these operational stress injuries that people may experience? What do they look like? What are some basic coping skills? Here are some numbers that you can reach out to, or some of our staff to reach out to if you're having problems,” and it's confidential.

They're going there proactively. They also have a peer support team, which isn't as feasible with a jury, but even having some kind of.... Having a mental health support person or clinician or someone they can reach out to during the trial and afterwards, I think, would be tremendously helpful.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you very much for that.

Now I will turn to Dr. Baillie.

You alluded to the numbers for Alberta, with regard to the people who are actually seeking services, and the numbers really seemed quite minuscule. Would you possibly have costs for other provinces as well?

[Dr. Patrick Baillie]

I don't, because I don't know what their utilization is, and there have also been different dates. Saskatchewan introduced their program last week. Again, it's a four-session, two-month model. I don't imagine anybody has taken advantage of it just yet, but in other provinces, I'm sure those numbers would be available through the mechanisms they have set up, such as an employee assistance program.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

That's something we should definitely look into. Thank you for that.

You talked about information that should be provided beforehand, but you alluded to only two things if I was listening correctly. The two things you were talking about were the mechanics and compensation and things of that nature.

Could you elaborate on that? What else would you include in those kits that are handed to jurors before the trial?

[Dr. Patrick Baillie]

The other critical piece I hope I alluded to was the resiliency component of the things jurors need to do to be looking after themselves during the process. The finances and the mechanics are the things that allow jurors to have some sense of control over what's going on in their lives. When people don't feel control, they tend to experience higher levels of anxiety, and so if you give them that information, they will have a little bit more knowledge about what to expect in terms of the mechanics.

Jurors may not have a great deal of sense of what to expect in terms of emotional testimony. Going back to the Garland trial, we had a medical examiner who was tearful on the stand. She was an experienced professional, and yet she was struggling with the evidence she was being asked to present. We need to provide jury members who don't have that experience with information up front about the kinds of difficult testimony they may experience. We need to tell them about the kinds of symptoms they may experience, and tell them that those are normal symptoms. We need to tell them about some of the strategies they can use to ameliorate those symptoms during the trial process, and inform them of the supports available to them afterwards.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Is this something that's currently done in Alberta?

[Dr. Patrick Baillie]

There is a brochure that's provided. I think it could be more comprehensive. I think the program generally could be more comprehensive.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Would you be kind enough to send a copy of that to the committee?

[Dr. Patrick Baillie]

Certainly.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Do you know if any other province has a similar practice?

[Dr. Patrick Baillie]

I believe there is information provided to jurors in other provinces, but I don't know the depth of that information.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

We have already asked for all the brochures.

You mentioned Alberta in your testimony. Ontario has it. Yukon has it, and we've asked for it from all of the provinces that have the program.

Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Mr. Kyllo, you alluded to the Manitoba debriefing program. We really haven't heard much evidence about that program. I understand it was established in 2005, but other than that, I really don't know much about it. I was wondering if you could elaborate on the Manitoba experience with the debriefing program.

Dr. Baillie, in relating your experience in counselling jurors, you mentioned that a number of people who came to you were perhaps not satisfied with the four counselling sessions or required further assistance. One of the things I was quite surprised to hear about from Alberta and Ontario was the relatively small number of jurors who are accessing those programs. I was also surprised to learn that almost no one who has access to those programs has asked for more sessions. I believe most provinces offer four sessions, and in Ontario it's up to eight.

Do you have any theory as to why that is? Would it be a lack of information? Is it that jurors are discouraged in some way? It just seems a little bit surprising in light of the statistics, which show that PTSD and other stresses are quite commonplace in the people accessing these programs.

[Dr. Patrick Baillie]

I'll give Mr. Kyllo the chance to answer on the debrief program.

[Greg Kyllo]

We'd love to be able to provide some follow-up information. The executive director of CMHA, Manitoba division, Winnipeg branch, provided me with the background details of the programming going on in Manitoba, and I'd love to forward that to the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you.

We'd also love to hear from CMHA as a witness in January. They weren't available before Christmas, but hopefully they will be here after the new year.

[Dr. Patrick Baillie]

Some of the concerns raised by jurors who have sought me out had to do with their not feeling a sense of connection with the therapist provided through the juror support program. I'm a forensic psychologist. The last line of my bio for any presentation reads, “Dr. Baillie appears frequently before the courts, usually as an expert and only occasionally as an accused.”

I'm used to being there. I understand the processes. I understand that jurors can be affected by even something as simple as the layout of the courtroom, the location of the jury rooms, and the parking difficulties at the courthouse. I think jurors feel a sense of connection and would welcome an opportunity to talk about their experiences with somebody who has been involved in the process, an involvement that some counsellors may not have had. They may be brilliant counsellors or therapists, but without having the legal or courtroom background, they don't understand. For example, if a juror says there was a voir dire and they were off for three days, and the counsellor asks what a voir dire is, that kind of interrupts the counselling process. The juror now has to do the educational part of it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you.

Dr. Lee, do you want to intervene?