Justice Committee on May 1st, 2018

[Christine Beintema]

Because I'm in a small community, we have contact directly with our judges, so we have those conversations often. There's a lack of resources in small communities, but I'm sure in larger centres, there's maybe not a lack of resources, but waiting lists and such so it's still difficult to access. The judges are made aware. Sometimes it's frustrating because we feel like we know exactly what this client needs after speaking to their psychiatrist and their mental health care worker, and here you go Justice so and so...but the reality is we know that the outcome is limited.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I think we're in agreement that this bill has a noble intention, but it definitely needs added resources in order to make it fully realize its potential.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Mr. McKinnon.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you.

I think this question has been canvassed various ways, but I'm not quite clear. The legislation says that you need to report on any medical disorder from which the offender suffers. It doesn't talk about the ones that the offender knows about, or the ones that he or she is willing to talk about. Is that a problem? Are you able to assess whether this person has any mental disorder other than the ones he talks about, or whether or not he does talk about it?

[Christine Beintema]

Obviously, our role isn't to assess any mental health issues. We're not qualified to do that. In the past, because we are educated and have knowledge about mental health issues in general, is we have noted certain characteristics or behaviours that the client displays, whether or not they have been reported by family members or by medical professionals, or are anything that we observe in our office. That we can note in the report. We obviously cannot make diagnoses. It's just the same as if a client says they're not using drugs but we witness them displaying symptoms of drug use: we can comment about those symptoms or behaviours they display, but we can't make diagnoses.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

What's the consequence if you miss something, and the information goes to the judge? How is the judge going to use that information? If there's some mental disorder that you're not aware of that is relevant—maybe I'm confused here—do you need to have access to a psychiatrist on an ongoing basis to do a psychological assessment for everybody? If there's information like this missing from the pre-sentencing report, what does that do to the scope of the judge's action?

[Chris Podolinsky]

I think in a lot of cases we would interview what we call collateral contacts: family members, people important in the person's life, and perhaps employers and service providers. For example, the client may say, I'm not diagnosed but I may have depression. So we can write that report, and say that the client reports feelings of depression, and suggest to the judge that this is an avenue we could explore after sentencing. As Christine said, we can't make the diagnosis. We can report when other people tell us they have concerns. That information can be included in the report and, again, followed up once they're sentenced, or it can be built into the conditions that this be followed up on.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

It seems to me that this change would require you to get some sort of psychological assessment done by someone who's trained to do that.

Would you agree with that?

[Christine Beintema]

Not completely. My understanding—and I could be wrong—is that the legislation would compel us to gather the information that the client is providing. If the client is saying they don't have any mental health issues, and we have no sources to confirm that there are mental health issues, there's no information for us to gather. We can't pull information out of nowhere.

If we're told by a source that he has been diagnosed, then we can investigate, and I think the legislation could help us to investigate that further, with some participation from other parties that we deal with. However, if a client isn't telling us.... It's frustrating sometimes when we interview clients who don't have anybody around them. They don't have any family supports, and there's nobody who knows them, because we're going based solely on clients' reporting, the information they're giving us.

[Chris Podolinsky]

I think if it's determined the way you mentioned it would be a big problem, a very significant problem, because based on the shortage.... In my community, for the youth I was working with, the psychiatrist had a roster of 300 patients, and they had to wait to get on that list. There are limitations on what's available for people who can make the diagnosis, and the reports are very expensive, $1,500 to $2,500 each. That would drain the budget, just based on the volume of clients. It would absolutely drain the budgets required to get the reports done.

[Christine Beintema]

Those reports are the responsibility of the courts to request. We don't request psychiatric or psychological reports. What we can do is work with the client to facilitate them accessing, whether or it be the Canadian Mental Health Association or some other community resource that can help with that, but that would be after sentencing. Upon sentencing, if the judge requires a psychiatric report, which is sometimes ordered, that happens outside of our role.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

If you think there's something going on that you can't find out about, you don't know about but you suspect, would you put that in the pre-sentencing report, and then perhaps the judge would come back and say an assessment is needed?

[Christine Beintema]

Yes. That could be a recommended condition. We include those at the end of our pre-sentence report. We may note any behaviours or concerns that we have, or maybe that family members, etc., have, and then we can request that in the body of the report.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I believe you also said that basically this compels you legally to do what you do already. Essentially, it says to me that you're comfortable with this wording, really.

[Christine Beintema]

Yes.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Those are my questions. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

We'll go to some shorter questions that any member of the committee may have.

Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses. You mentioned, to pick up where Mr. McKinnon left off, that this is something you already do in Ontario. It might be helpful if you could explain precisely what the policy says in Ontario.

[Christine Beintema]

I reached out to our assistant deputy minister's office to request it, because for us to speak about policy.... The role of our association is to speak about how we do our job and how various legislation impacts upon the way we do our job. They had advised that they had spoken about the policy directly, so I don't have the wording of our policy specifically. The terms of our policy direct that we explore mental health issues with the client and include that subject in the body of the report.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Then, based upon what I heard from you, that would involve talking to the offender and engaging with them, as well as pulling out of their file any information that is documented as well as any observations that are made while the offender is incarcerated.

Would that more or less explain what would be done to satisfy this policy requirement?

[Christine Beintema]

Absolutely.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

In that regard, this bill provides that in a pre-sentence report any mental disorder of the offender shall be reported. That is far broader than merely taking what is documented on file and putting it into a report, far broader than engaging with an offender, and far broader than recording observations that are made of the offender while incarcerated.

How would a probation officer be able to identify any mental disorder involving an offender without someone, such as a psychiatrist or other specialist, coming in and interviewing the offender? How would you get around it to satisfy what seems to me to be a much broader-in-scope requirement provided for in this bill?

[Christine Beintema]

My interpretation of it wasn't quite like that. We already look at several different avenues to identify it. The bill, as I read it, is not indicating that a client must be assessed and a diagnosis, if the condition exists, be made. What the bill is suggesting is that we as probation and parole officers write pre-sentence reports and must consider mental health issues and the availability of resources.

That's why I say that it's something we already do. I don't see the scope as being much larger. If the information is there and we have the means to gather that information, which is the big sticking point as far as I'm concerned, then it goes in the report.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

If your interpretation of the bill was not the right interpretation and it did involve the need to have a psychologist or psychiatrist come in, would that change your view of the bill? Would it be feasible? Would it be practical? Would it be possible?

[Christine Beintema]

I don't think it would be feasible, practical, or possible to have a psychiatrist come in. I think it would be ideal, but no—