Evidence of meeting #97 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was enforcement.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Director, Victim Services, La Maison de Mélanie
We really need to leave room for that.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
I'll come back to you in the short questions, if that's okay.
Mr. Fraser.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and all of you so much for your important input today and your participation in this important study. Obviously, we're hoping that out of this study will come some recommendations to the government to improve the situation regarding human trafficking in Canada.
Ms. Gosse, I'd like to begin with you. You have highlighted the importance of data collection, and I think it's become apparent to us on the committee that there needs to be better data collection across Canada, given the wide disparity in the statistics that we've heard from different sources.
I'm wondering if you can help us identify a model of data collection—you called it a “data collection mechanism”—in another country that we could look at as the way to do this.
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Centre to End Human Trafficking
I'd like to point to the national human trafficking hotline in the United States. That has been a model that we at our centre are now starting to follow. Polaris, which is the non-profit, national charity in the U.S., has implemented and had that hotline up and running now for 12 years.
Their data collection is significant and identifies the different typologies that exist in the United States. We don't believe we're that much different here. They have identified 25 different typologies of human trafficking, and let's be really clear: the data is clearly showing that human trafficking is first and foremost a business. It's a business where traffickers seem to feel—as has basically become the reality—that this is a low-risk, high-profit crime. As the other witnesses have testified, it is much easier to traffic a human victim than it is to traffic drugs or a gun, where there is substantial evidence. Witnesses have a difficulty in coming forward and a difficulty in prosecuting their perpetrators.
The human trafficking hotline in the United States is allowing victims to come forward and to call the line and get the services and support they need in a localized manner. It's a 24-7 hotline. It connects victims to law enforcement or other services as well.
It also allows members of the public to call in and report tips. Those tips are collected in the database, but also forwarded to law enforcement. Eventually, as time progresses, you're able to collect data that can come directly from witnesses or victims of human trafficking, or from members of the public. You can start to look at networking and identifying the trafficking network that exists in various communities. This in turn assists in disrupting those trafficking networks.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Thank you very much for that. I would like to ask you another quick question.
You talked about business activity, and beneficial ownership information being something that could be problematic. Were you talking about changing the rules surrounding beneficial ownership information or constricting it in some way regarding just businesses that deal in this field, or are you talking about changing the model of business information that's available for all businesses? It wasn't quite clear to me. Could you help me understand what you were saying?
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Centre to End Human Trafficking
We have had direct experience working on this issue of human trafficking at a municipal level. We have recently seen a report by the City of Toronto's auditor general who identified that probably about 25% to 30% of the licensed holistic services in the city of Toronto are basically being accredited by professional holistic associations that operate, as she said in her report, only on paper. They exist only on paper. Those accreditations have been given under false pretenses.
When you start to look at the data and the information, there is inaccurate or blank data regarding the ownership of these businesses. That is both provincial and federal legislation, where these ownerships are not clearly identified in the paperwork of the business. There has been movement by the federal government to change this on a federal basis as well.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Okay. That's great.
Professor Benedet, you talked about the sometimes misunderstood statistics with regard to the number of convictions or the number of charges laid dealing with human trafficking. It's my understanding that, in 2016, there were 45 convictions of human trafficking in Canada. I assume that this number may be misleading, obviously, with the prevalence of this issue in our country. Could you help us understand why it is so difficult to get a conviction of human trafficking if it's more prevalent than those numbers would suggest?
Prof. Janine Benedet
I'm certainly aware of many cases, and certainly some cases I've been consulted on, in which police or the crown were considering human trafficking charges and ultimately didn't lay those in favour of using the material benefit provision or the procuring offences in the Criminal Code. It's because the definition of trafficking that Canada has chosen really puts a burden on the victim to show their own exploitation and to show that the exploitation took place in some way through threats or the fear of force.
My understanding is that the amendments, if brought into force, would create an evidentiary presumption that might decrease the need to have victims testify, but that resumption can be rebutted, and it still requires, again, evidence of threats or violence, yet we see many cases in which the control is exercised by other means. Judge Morrison referred to the Moazami case in Vancouver, which proceeded under the regular material benefit or living on the avails provisions as they existed. He did things such as buy the young women dogs and then threaten to harm the dogs if they didn't comply. There are all sorts of techniques of control that don't meet the very narrow definition that's in the code.
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Thank you.
Now we'll go to what we call the short snapper round, where we ask members to provide shorter questions and we ask for shorter answers, if possible, from the panel, so that every member of the committee, if they would like, can ask a question.
We're going to start with Mr. Carrie.
Conservative
Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair; I'm not used to fast snapper rounds. This is a new thing for a politician.
First of all, Judge Morrison, I want to thank you, and all the witnesses, for your wisdom. One of the things you said that really hit me is that our biggest job as a country is to protect our kids. A lot of kids who are into this trade and trafficking have started very young.
My colleague brought up the fact that the Liberal Party adopted a resolution to decriminalize the consensual sex trade. I would note that they've introduced Bill C-75 where they're weakening penalties for criminals. They're delaying consecutive sentencing for human trafficking. They have this hybrid idea where they're adding summary convictions as an option for indictable offences.
I would like your opinion, and maybe a few of the witnesses could give theirs. Should we be weakening penalties for human trafficking or looking to decriminalize the sex trade? Shouldn't we be tightening up laws and making it more difficult? Perhaps you can even tie in what you said about the Nordic model and what they're doing there that is actually showing some positive results.
I know it's a big question for everybody, but we don't have a lot of time here and I thought I'd throw it out here.
Former Judge of the Supreme Court of British Columbia, As an Individual
To take away that one section that criminalizes women is my first thing. My heart fell as a card-carrying Liberal when I saw that resolution coming along. That wasn't my part of my Liberal Party.
Yes, increase penalties, but that's not the answer. The real question is whether we are really going to make prostitution easy for young people who are coming around. That's my concern.
Conservative
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Centre to End Human Trafficking
You mentioned protection of our families and of our children. If you think about this in the bigger picture, and you think about decriminalizing prostitution, let's just ask, would you like to see prostitution as a post-secondary educational choice that your daughter might want to go into in the future? Absolutely not.
We want to build a world that's better for our kids, not worse. I can tell you that the survivors of human trafficking who were sex workers initially whom we've spoken to have all told us that the horrors they faced in prostitution were the inherent violence that is brought by a purchaser, by a buyer of a sex worker, and those horrors are just incredible. We do not want to have that in the future for our women and girls or our men and boys.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I miss the more permanent members of our committee. We have such a great committee, where we ensure that we don't really bring partisan politics into very important national issues that we are discussing, like human trafficking today
As we go along and really look at the issue of what human trafficking, sex work, and prostitution really are, it hasn't worked so far. Our strategy so far has not worked.
Judge Morrison, is punishment or strict criminalization really the answer to tackling a crime that has such vulnerable communities involved, where oftentimes it is the victim who is being punished and not the offender? How can we, in our criminal justice system and in law enforcement, really look at the needs of the victim to eradicate the problem and to provide that assistance to them?
Prof. Janine Benedet
Take a look at Sweden. One of the detectives who was in charge of the Nordic model that they have in place in Sweden said that when they go in to bust a customer, the woman is there, and they leave behind either a trained police officer and/or a social worker who then sits down with her and asks, “What can we do to help you?” The woman, the seller of sex, is never criminalized. The person who purchased the sex is.
They are changing the culture of that country in a way that Canada has begun. We are on the same track as the Nordic model. Make it more along that track so that you are assisting those victims and they are not criminalized any longer in Canada.
When I started practising law, wow, the women all went to jail. I kept saying, “Where are the men? This is a consensual act. Where are the men?” Well, we know where they are, and I think it's time to do what the act was enacted for in 2014, to criminalize the purchasers and the pimps.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
As a follow-up, we talked a lot about the purchasers of sex. We heard from witnesses before at committee about a program where the purchasers of sex, the johns, had to attend john school where they received sensitivity training and understood the impact of what they were doing. They also had to pay a fine. That money was somehow.... It could have been used to provide that assistance to victims.
What is your take on having that as an option, if that could be implemented nationally?
Former Judge of the Supreme Court of British Columbia, As an Individual
I don't know how much john school.... Anything that helps, I'm in favour of. If it increases the awareness and the sensitivity of those who think it's fine to purchase sex or that's their thing, if it decreases that, I'm all for that. I'm not a big believer in jails. I never have, even though I had to send a lot of people there.
I'm much more in favour of, as I say, the Swedish model where you bring in social workers and trained police officers.
NDP
Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC
I'll maybe build on that train of thought that Judge Morrison was following.
In countries with the Nordic model, sex work and human trafficking obviously still exist. What about the argument that the only thing that changes is the increasingly dangerous conditions for women, the notion that instead of being able to properly vet the clients, they are now unable to properly interact with them because of the client's fear, the john's fear, that he's going to be arrested, together with the increased mistrust of police by sex workers?
Your point, I think, is that increasingly the detective stays with the woman after the charge and tries to get them services. I get that, but we've heard evidence from other sex workers that their lives are often put in jeopardy as a result of the existing laws. I'd love your comments on that.
Former Judge of the Supreme Court of British Columbia, As an Individual
I've heard the arguments that they need time to assess the purchaser so that it won't be as dangerous. Most of the victims of Willie Pickton knew Willie. It was party time at Willie's place. Most of the women picked up knew who Willie was, and they'd known him for a long time. It's an argument that I don't buy, and I haven't bought, that if you give more time, then it will be safe, or that if you take it off the street and put it indoors, it will be safe. I don't think the statistics bear that out. The example of Sweden versus Germany is horrifying to me.
NDP
Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC
Why is that? Just elaborate, if you would. Why is the example horrifying?
Former Judge of the Supreme Court of British Columbia, As an Individual
It's the different climate in the country with regard to prostitution. In Sweden, you see that trafficking has decreased dramatically, particularly from foreign jurisdictions. They also say that in Sweden there is nothing to back up the assertion that taking it indoors makes it safer, and this suggestion that adult prostitutes will hire bodyguards and have chauffeurs is a side of prostitution I haven't seen.
Prof. Janine Benedet
Put at its extreme, the documentation I've seen suggests that there is perhaps only one somewhat disputed murder that has been linked to the sex trade in Sweden since they moved to their asymmetrical criminalization, compared with over 50 murders in Germany of women connected to the sex trade. That's violence at its most extreme, but it's a good indicator of the notion that legalized prostitution doesn't wipe out violence.
The men still want anonymity. They still have a sense of entitlement that if they pay enough, they can get what they want. In jurisdictions that have decriminalized prostitution, you will always have a large illegal prostitution industry alongside the lawful prostitution industry. The estimate is that about a third of the women in New Zealand are foreign nationals, mostly Chinese, who are not authorized to work in that country. It's interesting to hear that the switch in immigration may be an attempt to deal with the problem by legitimizing their being brought in for exactly that purpose. I don't know, but that's the first I've heard of it.
I think it's a myth and it's also an abdication of state responsibility. It is not the responsibility of individual women to protect themselves from male violence. It is the state's responsibility to put in place effective criminal laws that are enforced and that actually deal with that problem.